Background
Mint Season 7 Episode 14 welcomes Chase Chapman, a fellow web3-native podcaster and the host of ‘On The Other Side Podcast.’ Join us as we explore web3 content creation, recurring themes discussed on her podcast, her obsession over DAOs, and how Chase has personally grown since joining her first DAO. We also delve into the balancing act of creating content, today’s most compelling DAOs, and the future of media, content, and creator DAOs.
I hope you enjoy our conversation.
Time Stamps
- 00:00 – Intro
- 06:01 – Web3 Content Creation
- 08:16 – Recurring Themes Discussed On The Other Side Podcast
- 15:52 – Why the Obsession Over DAOs?
- 18:29 – How Have You Personally Grown Since Joining Your First DAO?
- 20:15 – Balancing Creating and Content
- 22:32 – Compelling DAOs of Today
- 30:18 – Media, Content, and Creator DAOs
- 44:46 – Outro
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Intro
Chase, welcome to mint. I’m really excited for you to be here. This is like a pod, X pod collab. Mint X on the other side, big fan of the podcast.
Chase Chapman: Thank you.
How does it feel to be on the other side of the mic?
Chase Chapman: It’s always really funny. I feel like my brain. I feel like turn off interviewer brain. I don’t know if you feel that way when you’re on podcasts.
Definitely.
Chase Chapman: But it’s like, okay, we’re going into, I need to have opinions mode and not like, my brain is malleable mode. I’m working on trying to find the balance between those. And I think there’s probably an interesting middle ground. But it’s definitely like a different persona.
So, when people ask you chase, who are you and what are you doing crypto, what do you tell them?
Chase Chapman: It’s change. It depends on who it is. And it totally changes based on like, how I’m feeling that day. If it’s someone who is not in crypto at all, I usually go like the, you know, the internet is sort of like autocracy. And I believe that like people should basically own and have a say in the value they create and that’s what I’m doing. And so, I don’t even really mention crypto, like hone in on that. But if it’s someone in crypto then it’s like Dao research kind of but also the people and culture in web three it’s never a good answer. I’ll tell you that. Like it’s always confusing and bad.
Well, I know you as a podcasting extraordinaire, and having a really awesome like media arm, that you’re consistently dedicated to in producing really thoughtful pieces of content. And also, professional ship poster yet, I want to come up with another sort of word, but I’ll leave it at that. But also, like your tweets and sort of your beliefs in the world are very thought provoking and have attracted quite a following, especially around the Dao community. So, part of this conversation, I want to focus on the theme of season seven, which is creating content that’s worth collecting, but even more so understanding your perspective on the current state of Dao, Airdrops community incentives, and everything in between. Okay, so and part of the reason why I wanted to have you on Chase is, you are a content creator, you understand the craft of creating content, give or take you make a living through that, you have sponsors, like you know what it takes to create the hustle around creating content. And part of the theme of season seven is centered around, you know, how can we create content that’s worth collecting, so that we become less of slaves to the algorithm, right? In creating content for distribution, and more so for a select few. And I know we had a conversation about this privately. And I know you have different thoughts as to how you approach the business of content creation. So that’s the foundation for the conversation Chap. I want to ask you, where do you think is a good place to start? I want to start on the downside. I want to start on the content creation side, I want to start everywhere. What feels good, what feels good to you?
Chase Chapman: That’s a good question. Let’s start on the content side. Because I have thoughts that I think are a lot less polished and a lot less developed than yours. So like, I think actually, you’ve done a much better job at thinking deeply about content and doing experiments with it. So, let’s start there. Because I think I have a very, I don’t know, unpolished and early view of some of that stuff.
Well, you’re also being very humble, because you do create content for like a consistent living, right? And rabbit holes also sponsor, like I’ve listened to your stuff, I have given it five stars, like I’m a fan, you know.
Chase Chapman: Thank you.
Web3 Content Creation
So, when you think about the world of like content creation, in the context of web three, what are some things that come to mind?
Chase Chapman: Yeah, this is so interesting. So, like, right now, my current thought for the way that I personally approach content is not, does not apply to everyone. So I will say this was like a massive grain of salt. But I’ve been thinking a lot about how, I think some of the best content comes from a place of basically like reflection, where I think there are some people who can create really amazing content, because they’re digging deep into like, what’s on chain and all of that. I think, for me, personally, the content that I make very much comes from a place of, okay, I’m building in the space, I’m halfway addicted to Twitter, like I’m in the trenches dealing with all the shit that I talked about on the podcast, is things that I see as problems. The same thing happened when I was contributing to DAOs for a year, and I was like, Holy shit, there are a lot of problems with these organizations, like, how can we solve them? And so, the way that I’ve always approached content is basically like, how can I get my hands dirty, and get in the trenches of the things that I’m interested in, and then basically create content, where I’m essentially like processing and talking about the challenges and opportunities and all the things that come with whatever it is I’m doing at the time. And so, I’ve always had this view that like, I actually don’t want to be like a full-time content creator, because I think that works. For some people who are doing like research or like their hands getting dirty in the trenches, is research or who deeply understand culture, or who are doing like the experiments that you’re doing with men, are very much like you’re getting your hands dirty. But I think I’ve always been really like grounded in this idea that, in order for me at least, to make interesting content, I need to be doing things in the space that are interesting. I don’t know if that resonates with how you see some of that.
Recurring Themes Discussed On The Other Side Podcast
However, it does, it does. Because what I’m picking up from you is that you have to be an active participant to develop your points of view, that you then communicate and discuss openly with everybody else that you have on the podcast. And I think my stems, like the root of my experimentation comes from my ADHD and my ADD of like, not being satisfied by doing something consistently. Like, for example, when I wake up in the morning, I just bought like coffee, you know, but I’ve been drinking espresso for the longest time. And I always have to change things up. It’s still coffee at the end of the day. But I have to get different versions of it, so that I can, like be motivated to start my day the same way I kind of imagined it to. So, that analogy of drinking coffee in the morning very much pertains to how I approach content as a creator. And that’s solely where it stems from. And you brought up a lot of the conversations that you have. I feel like give or take, not reoccurring, but there are underlying themes that on the other side covers, right. So, from your perspective, what are some of the reoccurring themes that you discuss in the podcast? I’d love for you to share.
Chase Chapman: Yeah, I mean, I guess like taking a step back and giving some context. I actually just had Gabby Goldberg on the podcast, and I think she does a great job articulating some of the things that I feel really strongly about, which is that, like I grew up on the internet. I think a lot of people think I’m a lot older than I am, which is kind of funny. So, I’m 23 and so I grew up on the internet. You know, I had Instagram, like in middle school, like all of these experiences that I had, as a teenager were very like internet native. And so, I think what has always been this like through line throughout my life, has been kind of the intersection of acknowledging, that it feels like we are increasingly online, like it’s hard to say, even in today’s state of like, I don’t know, if you wanna say post pandemic, but like, whatever. We’re increasingly online, and also as human beings with needs, and who sort of want to live the best lives that we can. I also acknowledge that like, in a lot of ways, I think the internet poses like a threat to our well-being. And I experienced that all throughout childhood where I was like, I know this isn’t that good for me, but I’m using it anyway, because my entire social fabric is sort of supplemented by this. And so ultimately, I think what that led me to and what the podcast really explores, is what it looks like for humans to exist on the internet in a way that actually optimizes for human thriving instead of these, like weird sort of fucked up platforms. And so like, ultimately, that’s also why I ended up in web three, because I think when you take a deeper look at any of the platforms that we have today, economic incentives are ultimately like, underscoring a lot of the reasons that these things are so pernicious. And so, for me, web three is both an opportunity to sort of right the wrongs that we’ve created, and also like, create new interesting systems. And the podcast, I think, is very much exploring how we do that. Because we tend to use that ethos law in web three, like, we say, yes, we’re building a new internet, it’s going to be better, whatever. But we also create incredibly. I keep swearing, and I feel bad.
Do it.
Chase Chapman: But we create a bunch of fucked up systems in replacement of the old systems that were also fucked up. And when I say that, I mean things like the financialization of everything like I really think that if we’re not careful, we’re going to create a similar internet that has different problems but still problems done. The last that are like, really, again, not optimizing for humans are going to be problems always. But like how big these problems are, and how big of a threat they are. I think there’s a big thing here. Anyway, all that is to say, I think the podcast is very much about raising awareness of and exploring those things. So that when we say we’re building a new internet, we’re actually doing that in a way that’s better, instead of sort of recreating similar issues, and maybe even making them worse.
As a 23-year-old, your point of view is very mature, like incredibly mature. And I feel like you get that a lot from older people that you speak to, they’re always surprised, like you said, by your age, and you brought how, you brought upon how you grew up with Instagram in your hand and your passion for sort of building a better world. And I’m trying to think if there’s, if you can reflect on any moments of you growing up, that has developed that maturity and has led to your passion of like wanting to develop this ambitious vision that you have today.
Chase Chapman: Well, I appreciate that. It’s so funny. I actually when I was a kid, I don’t know why, like 12 years old, I guess it’s not really kid. But I started reading a ton of spiritual spirituality and self-help books, like not like religious but like Eckhart Tolley and Osho and all these people. And I don’t know why. Do you have your stack?
I have my stack. And I’m keep going, like I just got to pull out the one that sort of like changed my life.
Chase Chapman: I’m curious what it’s going to be.
And it’s so cringy because it’s such like a well-known book that really set the tone for me, Thinking Grow Rich by Napoleon Hill. Like that book.
Chase Chapman: I haven’t read that.
Thinking grow rich set the tone for me, and my 11th grade teacher in high school, Mr. Prapata, he changed my entire world and put me on my path. You know, it’s like, talk about like a fuse that hasn’t been lit. And then you have this guy with a torch. He’s like, I’m going to light you up. Like, that’s literally what happened. And he’s like, in the meantime, as you’re burning, take this book with you, as your guider, I digress. You were saying.
Chase Chapman: I love that. No, I mean, it’s very similar. And so, I think like, in a lot of ways, you know, that very much grounded me in this idea of like, I want to, I personally want to live a life that feels like it was worth living. And to me, what that means is finding spaces where I feel really passionate and intellectually excited about the work that I’m doing. And also feeling like I’m creating a space that allows other people to strive for a life that’s worth living. And I think when I became aware of that, I noticed the spaces in which I did not feel like I was spending my time in a way that felt so fulfilling and like true to who I was. And a lot of that was like digital spaces. Like when I would go on Instagram. I don’t, I didn’t leave the app feeling like awesome or fulfilled and I think that’s changed for me a little bit in that, like, I’ve made some amazing friends off of Twitter like I’ve definitely had experiences where I’ve seen the beauty of these digital spaces. And, and I think that’s been really interesting to watch. But like net overall, I think a lot of that drove me to be like, okay, how can we create spaces that are actually better for human thriving and things like that. And so, I think that was always the grounding for us. And then I would say the other piece of it is like, because I’m young, I use a lot of research to support what I’m thinking and doing, which has helped a lot, because then I’m not just like completely ignoring all of the knowledge that people outside of crypto have created around like, you know, self-governing systems and shareholders and like all of those things.
Why the Obsession Over DAOs?
So, it’s a perfect transition to try to understand where DAOs fit into that picture for you. So, my first question around that is like, where does your obsession with DAOs come from? So, I can see, like a grain of salt sort of like a resemblance between how you think, as like outside of crypto to your interest in crypto. But from your perspective, why the obsession over DAOs?
Chase Chapman: It’s funny, like, I think my answer this has changed over time. And part of it is because I’ve learned more and more why they were so interesting to me. When I first got into crypto, it was like 2018 and it was really highly technical. You were in the space at the time, right?
Yes
Chase Chapman: Very highly technical and I was not technical and non-technical. And so, I saw this opportunity for what this space could become. And I think as much as the values around the space have evolved, a lot of them are still really core to this idea around like, you know, Bitcoin is a response to a centralized financial system. I think a lot of like web three is a response to a centralized set of social platforms and all that. And so, I think I always felt like there was this gap between, in theory what we were doing, and I think that was being applied at very technical levels, like Ethereum as a blockchain is decentralized, and does have these certain values of credible neutrality and stuff. Two. Okay, what does this look like for humans in these systems? And how do we empower humans, so that the values aren’t just baked into the protocol, but they’re actually baked into these like layers that we’re building on top of it. And so, I think DAOs, to me, were one of the most exciting examples of baking in these values, and allowing humans to engage with them, not just like computers, or people who are messing with computers, to engage with them, almost like in this human readable way. And so, that is where I think my obsession with Dao was started. And then from there, it became very obvious that there was a lot of room for improvement in DAOs. And that was just like, to me that was the tear like analogy about the torch, that was a torch where I was like, okay, not only is this really exciting, but this is actually a space that is still so nascent and actually needs a lot of thinking, a lot of research, a lot of consideration to go into making these systems actually work. But there’s something here.
How Have You Personally Grown Since Joining Your First DAO?
How have you personally grown ever since joining your first Dao?
Chase Chapman: That’s a great question. How have I personally grown? I think that I’ve grown a lot in trusting my curiosities. Like I think that, you know, when I first started tweeting, and when I first started engaging in DAOs, and writing about it, I don’t think I had like the most confidence in my curiosity. I think it was like, I don’t know if this is right, even starting the podcast. Like I think all of these pieces have consistently taught me, that if I’m curious about something other people probably are too, and there’s probably an interesting seed of something here to play with. And then I think the second piece is also like, there’s a really, I keep talking about balance. I feel like I think everything is a balance at this point. That’s my current mental model. But I definitely have had an interesting relationship with balancing, doing things independently and collaborating with other people. Like I think that’s one of the biggest question marks in DAOs is like how much you sort of self-govern and take it upon yourself to do things versus like, rely on people around you. And so, I think at like a very tangible level, that’s something that is also a dance and a balance. And I think I have learned to get a lot better at that going also from like Dao, sort of contributions to being on like a team, which is metropolis, which is doing Dao tooling, like it’s been a very interesting dance between those two things.
Balancing Creating and Content
What would you say your dance battle looks like? Like what is your balance? Like how do you find your balance? I think it’s because you were constantly online, right? And you’re like, incredibly grained. So, I’d ask you about your dance battle. It’s like, how do you find the balance between creating and content? Between your ideology of like being like very forward about everything should be decentralized, or the Dao is the way, like what is your balance look like?
Chase Chapman: Yeah. Well, from the perspective of content creation work, I think that’s a fun balance. I’ve more recently started to think about content creation as work, not in the sense of like it feels not fun, more in the sense of like, I think that when I get really excited about things, I’ll spend endless time on those things. And I will also immerse myself so deeply in it, that I don’t, you know, take care of other things that I need to get to the point about, like making sure that I have my friends outside of crypto, like all of those things to me are part of that balance. And so, I’ve started to look at all of these things, more like opportunities that I get to play with in my work life and acknowledging that, like these things are mental work. And I think like, as a side note, in the bull market, it’s very easy to go so deep, and just completely forget about all these things. I think in a bear market, it’s important, partially just because like there’s less craziness, but also because like, I think if you don’t pace yourself and acknowledge that these things are work, and they do take like intellectual labor, you will run out of energy, like fully. And so, my current thing has been very much like nurturing this idea around, okay, these things are work, and I’m showing up to them. Even if some days I’m like, I don’t feel like doing a little bit of writing on this, doing it anyway, acknowledging that, like nurturing that seed of curiosity, I think is the key to sustaining excitement and ideas and passion around a lot of this stuff.
Compelling DAOs of Today
I got burnt out in the bull market, like genuinely burnt out, I remember at the height of the of the, or like, pre height of the bull market. And I referenced the bull market as like the NFT bull market, I had just recently quit my job. And I was like, right, I gotta figure something out, like I have offers from other companies, but I’m not down to do any of that. Let’s start a podcast, and literally was like, was at creating content throughout the entire bear market, had ideas that tried, I raise money for that burnt me out, like, and I learned so much. And now that we’re in the bear market, I can like, you know, like breathe for a minute, I can be like a hawk over the Grand Canyon, and just kind of like roam and cruise and see what’s going on below me and be very thoughtful about my actions, you know, while also not discounting that you still need to like still need to be quick with stuff. So, your concept of burning out is very real for me. And I think part of it was also like the engagement and trying to be involved with different doubts. That was a very high, very, very hot concept. People were pushing out that they’re no longer working for cash. They’re only working for Dao tokens. We’re only Daoists. Now, all these organizations came out, you know, and trying to be an all these discords, vote on stuff, that also got very overwhelming. And I think that also introduced the concept of discord fatigue. So, a lot of my rant over a year kind of transition. So, my next question for you, Chase, DAOs were hot and that was are still a thing, obviously. But are they as hot as they used to be? And if so, what are some of the more like compelling used cases we’ve seen today?
Chase Chapman: Are DAOs as hot as they used to be? I mean, definitely not, like crypto loves narrative shifts. And I think something that I’ve always believed to be true. Is that, yes, DAOs are hot now. This was, you know, a year and a half whatever ago, they will not stay this way, mostly because we don’t actually know what works yet. And I think that is now coming true today, where basically what’s happening is like DAOs in the early stages, everyone was sharing all their experiments. And we had no actual way of knowing if those things worked, which made it really exciting because you’re like, oh, everyone’s you know, index is doing this and so and so is doing this, and we can borrow this. A year later, you learn, okay, this model actually totally didn’t work for x, y&z reasons, these people are struggling to make revenue, whatever. And so, the natural conclusion is like, DAOs don’t really work. If you’re reading very surface level, the reality is like all of the models that we’re testing, we’re basically getting results now knowing okay, this model doesn’t work but this model does work. And this model is actually promising, but we need to switch it in this way. And so, I think the reason the DAOs are not as hot anymore is one, it was like a lot of, you know, hype and excitement around stuff that we didn’t actually have an idea of whether or not it worked longer term yet. And two, we’re now at the stage where we’re doing the hard work of figuring out okay, what’s next. And that’s not the most exciting narrative to people, I get it, that’s all good. I think these like crypto narrative cycles go in and out. And I’m sure in a couple of years, when we have a lot more figured out, it’s gonna be like, oh, amazing. DAOs are wonderful. I think, broadly speaking, the way that I’ve always seen DAOs in the space is, a lot of the core infrastructure that we’re building needs to be governed in a distributed fashion. Whether you think that’s full decentralization, or like heavy on representative, sort of democracy and delegation, like doesn’t really matter, I don’t really care how people cut it. But ultimately, like to me, most of the things that we’re building are going to end up being DAOs, if you want them to be governed in a distributed way. And so, I think, to that point, like a lot of this stuff is really infrastructure, that is ultimately going to end up evolving over time. And I think ideally, the next time like DAOs, end up in this like big crypto narrative, it’s not actually DAOs. Ideally, it’s like a specific type of Dao in the same way that like PFP is where a specific type of NFT or music NFTs or podcasts NFTs are coming up. Like I think we need more specialization in specific cases of implementation. And I think that will probably be the next big run. And then you asked another question, but I don’t remember what it was because I just went deep on that little tangent.
Well, it was around more of like the compelling used cases that we’re seeing today. And I think one that everybody loves to bring up as nouns Dao, as like a core example that seems to be working people like to flex the amount of Eth that they have, you know, I’ve heard you say that publicly on the podcast before, you know. So, I think that’s a compelling used case for the wealthy bunch. But what about like other used cases that come to mind, that we’ve seen some, like quality adoption around?
Chase Chapman: Yeah, well, I have to set the record straight. Also, I talk so much shit about nouns, but I only do it because I think that nouns is wonderful, and I love it as a model. I think generating revenue is massive. I think people rely too heavily on nouns as a single model, in the exact same way that I was saying, we tested all these things, and we didn’t know the results of it. Yes, nouns is like, actually not super new. But like in the grand scheme of things, we still haven’t seen people who are able to recreate the success of nouns at the scale, even close to nouns. And so, I am excited about nouns. And I am wary of it being applied in over applied basically. But yes, I think nouns is really exciting. I’m also like, fascinated by and think it’s really promising that there are so many DeFi DAOs, that like despite their challenges work and have worked for years. I think like the makers even like compound Ave, yes, they have teams in some cases that are centralized and sort of engaged with or building an explosion of the Dao. But I think that there’s something to be said for the fact that like, we’ve created relatively stable protocols, with specialized organizations plugging in, for example, gauntlet, plugging into like an Ave for specifically like risk mitigation, stuff like that. I think we don’t celebrate enough. And, you know, I think a lot of like, crypto oh, geez, over the last cycle sort of pointed to them and was like, no, these are the real DAOs. And I think that there’s a time to double down on what we have and what works and a time to experiment and try new things. And I’m definitely at the moment in time where I’m like, okay, let’s pause, what do we know works? And we do know that that works. We know that governing, you know, smart contract parameters and being able to take stable systems and democratizing them actually is an effective way to do take these like digital sort of public goods and make sure that they’re treated in a way that the people who are using them and token holders and things actually have a say in them. So that’s exciting. And I think that’s probably the most boring answer I could give. But I do think it’s true. And I think we don’t give them enough credit.
Media, Content, and Creator DAOs
So, on that topic of kind of uncovering successful DAOs, I want to pose a question to you. How do you feel about media DAOs and content DAOs, creator DAOs? What is your perspective with that?
Chase Chapman: So, I would position this in my head at least as there are two different types of DAOs. So, one type of Dao is governing value. I always think about like DeFi DAOs is this. I would say nouns to a lot of degrees is this. They’re taking something that they basically want to be stable and safe and they’re governing it. The other kind of Dao which often plugs into these types of organizations, by the way, is something that’s creating value. And you can argue that like governing is creating value and all that stuff. But when I say creating value, I mean something like a creator Dao, I even think something like a gauntlet is creating value. They’re creating risk models; they’re then applying those response. To me, I think that the promise there is around co owning what it is that’s created. I think that’s really exciting. I think my engagement with something like that has been relatively low. But this comes back to this question of independently versus collaboratively doing work together. And so, I think at like a very tangible level, there’s something really exciting about being able to collaborate on something and co-owned something. And then I would say at a higher level, there’s definitely something that’s fascinating about, you know, 10 years down the line, having like creator DAOs which really look like and I credit Gabby Goldberg when she came on the podcast for making me think this way, but like, you know, Tik Tok comments as governance is like a very interesting way to think about it, where it goes from co-creation of individuals to co-creation of a creator with an audience or community or whatever, and maybe we’re already there today. I mean, I think you know more about this than I do, probably, but that’s kind of how I think about it.
So, that’s a great analogy, like Tik Tok comments are definitely a form of governance. So, it makes you think whether or not all these additional stacks of layers for tooling in infra, are even necessary to build these DAOs when, if enough people contribute their voice, they could sway the direction without signing their Metamask, right? Yeah. Do you ever think about that? Am I wrong to think that? What are your thoughts?
Chase Chapman: I think that when I think about what web three actually provides, in that context, it’s sort of two things. So, the first is some level of like executable power, which nouns does you know, for example, like you could see creators leveraging a noun’s type model, or you’re actually putting like money in a treasury and then that treasury gets deployed. Something like that at a very like high level executable power, I think is helpful. But I think the thing that’s actually more helpful is this idea around sovereignty outside of platforms, right? So, like, you know, there is power in your audience not being trapped within Tik Tok. And I think that’s probably the bigger piece around web three and more broadly, and then governance plugs into that, like all these things plug into that. But I think even when I’m thinking about the way that I feel about a creator on Twitter, like, generally speaking, when Elon first did his Twitter bullshit, I was like, this is a little bit spooky, and I’m not loving what’s going on. Then I was like, this is fine. And now I’m back to like, ooh, Twitter’s breaking all the time. This is like not optimal.
He’s always on my timeline. Like why?
Chase Chapman: And I think like, you’ve done a really great job sort of intentionally building your community, I think outside of a platform, which I think is genius and if I was more intentional about my podcast, I would 100% be doing that. But I think that’s actually one of the bigger benefits around what it means to have like a creator Dao, is just that like DAOs shouldn’t be limited to or trapped on any individual platform. And optimally, that becomes the experience that then you create for community. And so, it doesn’t really matter what platform you’re on, you’re able to sort of port over those conversations and relationships and stuff outside of, you know, Twitter, Tik Tok, whatever it is.
My bet is that your community of collectors will outpace your community of followers over again. And the reason being is because when you build a collector, a collector is interoperable. You can build an audience on sound, on Zora, on lens, on manifold, on all these platforms and empower creators. And with a tweet or with an email, I can shift their attention to come with me to that platform, right?
Chase Chapman: Totally.
So, if you look at 2018 when Tik Tok was on the rise, a lot of the infamous Instagram creators, that were sort of like, I guess, legacy into their system, that everybody you loved and adored, now became less relevant. Because now there was a wave of Tik Tok creators, and they built viral audiences with better distribution, and more power essentially, and more brand revenue being attributed to them than Instagram creators flat out right. So, my bet is that the next wave of the creator economy is going to empower your community of collectors over your community of followers. Because then you own that audience, wherever you go, your community of collectors follow, whereas what you just said right now. Right now, we’re building followings and we’re publishing on platforms that are gated silos, right? And it’s very difficult for a creator to basically transfer their audience from one platform to another and then they become slaves to the algorithms, and then they get burnt out by consistently publishing and trying to feed into the distribution algorithms, you know, so, whereas as a community of collectors like, you don’t need all 20,000 of your collectors to collect something at the spotlight, you could get 1% of them to do that. And you can still make a living out of your creative endeavors. So, I’m at the situation where my community of collectors have already outpaced my community of followers and from building on lens, from doing free NFTs, doing paid NF T’s and it’s a consistent experiment. I don’t know if it’s going to pan out the right way, but I’m already seeing how this value could look like long term.
Chase Chapman: Yeah, it’s really interesting. I am incredibly curious to see how these changes, both creator behavior and distribution. So, I also keep shouting out gab because we just had this conversation but it’s also so relevant to this one. Something I think about a lot that we talked about on that episode is distribution. Not being centralized really changes the game for what that might even look like. Because in general, yes, like, even if collectors outpace followers, you still need a discovery mechanism. And so, I think the like sort of, I like to call it physics because that’s like, it’s like the rules of these digital spaces and how they sort of exist. The physics around discoverability in these spaces when you don’t have centralized distribution, I think is going to be fascinating to watch. And then I also think what it’s going to start to potentially do is, if you kind of think about like human, I think that like creators are basically relationship. I don’t even know what the right word is, like if you think about para social relationships, even if you don’t go that far. I think a lot of at least my relationship with creators is basically like they’re a friend, right? Like that’s how I engage with them and that’s how I see them. And so, consistency and these other things actually still matter a lot. I think algorithms that we use for distribution today, sort of encode those specific things that we know to be true but human nature, we know that in order for users to enjoy certain creators, you want that consistent relationship. We know that in order for creators to get that attention, they also need to create content that’s like relatively different whatever. If you strip that that layer away, I’m very curious to see what still remains as these like fundamental, just human raw things that we want in a relationship with a creator. And I don’t know if you have like an opinion on what some of those things might be, but I think it’s gonna be fascinating.
What you’re alluding to is centrally email because if you can own your audience and own your distribution, then you are the platform, 100%, you know, and you no longer need to build your audience on the accompanying platforms. I have a newsletter. I have my audio, my audio networks, my YouTube is slacking, but whatever, you’re building or building it, and then I experiment with free and paid NFTs. And over time, I’ve been able to build a community of collectors whose emails are also attributed to their wallet address, right, and it was all opted in, right. So, now anytime I have an announcement, or I want to distribute something that also has a call to action of collecting something, I’m able to do so accordingly. And I may be an outlier with that. But I think if platforms build tools that allow creators not only to own their audience via minting stuff, but also find ways to own their distribution as well. And you’ve completely changed the game, 100%. Because right yeah, because right now, we’re still dependent on the, like, majestic algorithms of Tik Tok and how they distribute content and how they create literally influencer out of almost anyone, you know. Now it makes you think like, with higher quality, like with higher quantity of influencers, like what’s the quality in that, you know, like you often see people with like a million followers on Tik Tok not getting shit engagement, you know, for a video that they post. So, there’s many factors that contribute to that. But my bet again, as creators discover crypto, as creators discover NFTs, web three, all these primitives, DAOs, whatever may be, over time, their community of collectors will outpace their community of followers, because they’re just going to see it from a data perspective, from a monetization perspective, from a communication perspective. I think there’s more power of being able to integrate your audience in web three than there is in web two. Maybe bias but that’s sort of like the fish sugar that I’ve slightly tasted a little bit. And I can see how that kind of like transforms big picture.
Chase Chapman: Yeah, it’s interesting to exist like, is it. I think being a creator today, yes. Is like there’s work involved. But I would assume that you’re doing on average, like more because it’s your responsibility then if you’re owning the platform to some degree. And maybe they’re just tools that come in and help make that easier. But like, I think a lot of this stuff is also a matter of, you know, how much time and energy are you ready to put into building your distribution outside of certain platforms, which is basically an investment at the end of the day, but it’s an upfront investment for a much longer-term benefit. And obviously, humans love short term gratification over long term investment.
definitely. I think it’s also a good transition into sort of like some quick action questions, Chase. Yay or nay, podcast NFTs?
Chase Chapman: I think, yay, I think there’s a long way to go and I’m glad that you are experimenting with them. You and a few other like rehash. I think, like getting to the point where, you know, some of the biggest pod, maybe some of the biggest podcasts don’t need to be doing it. But I’m excited to see more experimentation around audiences outside of crypto.
Yay or nay content NFTs in general. So, podcast is like a sub niche, that like do you think every form of content, every form or media should be tokenized? Yay or nay?
Chase Chapman: I’m gonna have to plead the flip upon this one. It’s not, it’s actually I am pleading the flip. I flipped and flopped on this about a zillion time. I think that it’s hard to imagine a world in which we just kind of slap ownership on to our existing content mechanisms. I think that every piece of content being something that’s like owned or memorialized on chain might not make sense from like, a first principles perspective. But I also feel like if I had, you know, made any predictions about the internet in like 20 years ago, I would have sounded really stupid now and would have been totally wrong. So, it’s hard to say.
Okay, I’ll take it. Yay or nay, DAOs being here five to 10 years from now.
Chas Chapman: Big yay.
Big Yay. Yay or nay on the US government transforming into a Dao, once our generation goes into office.
Chase Chapman: I’m gonna say nay, because I don’t agree with everything that Balaji talks about in his notion of a network state, but I do think that network states are much more promising and much better off as like digitally native.
Yay or nay on web three.
Chase Chapman: Nay.
Outro
Troll everyone. Chase, this has been an epic conversation. I love your thoughts. I love your perspective on how you’re cruising through crypto. Before I let you go, where can we find you? Where can we learn more? Where can we stay in touch? Show it away.
Chase Chapman: Well, this was so fun and thank you so much for having me on. I need to have you on my podcast. We live to do a true cross.
I’m gamed.
Chas Chapman: You can find me on Twitter. I’m @chaserchapman. So, she’s Chase Chapman but with an R in the middle. I’m also really trying to write more which I keep saying, if I say it, I will do it. I’ve been getting in my little writing practice every day. So, now I just have to publish stuff. So, I’m chased.mirror.xyz. And then my podcast is called on the other side and it’s on all of the platforms publicly enough.
Let’s go. Go check it out. Great podcast definitely delivers a different perspective on crypto. Chase. We’ll have to do this again soon, but till next time, thank you.
Chase Chapman: Thank you.