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Background
Mint Season 4 episode 28 welcomes Dan Hannum, COO of ZenLedger, who’s on a mission to provide crypto traders and tax professionals with the most user-friendly tax and accounting software for cryptocurrency investments, trading, and fund operations.
This episode outlines what crypto-native creators should look out for during tax season. From issuing tokens, selling and buying your first NFT, to even forming a DAO, here’s a comprehensive discussion on web3 taxation and tips to consider.
Promo: For a limited time, get 20% off ZenLedger when using MINT20 at checkout.
In this episode, we discuss:
- 00:00 – Intro
- 11:49 – NFT Tax
- 19:22 – DAO Formation and Fungible Tokens
- 22:15 – Tax Tips for Creators
- 26:38 – Crypto-native business models
- 30:32 – Government Backed Stable Coins
- 32:57 – Ethics Around a Human Stock Market
- 35:32 – ZenLedger and High-End Luxury NFT Drops
- 39:08 – Deciphering between a personal transaction and a business transaction
- 41:45 – Bonus Questions
- 43:57 – Crypto Tax Loopholes
- 55:05 – Outro
…and so much more.
I hope you enjoy our conversation.
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Intro
Dan, welcome to mint, my friend. How are you doing? Thank you for being on.
Dan Hannum: I’m doing well. Thanks for having me on.
Dude, I’m excited to have you on. I don’t jack shit about taxes, hence why you’re here today. So thank you for reaching out. And I’m excited to learn more about Zen ledger, number one. Number two, it is tax season. And what a better person to talk to you then yourself. So let’s just dive right in. Who are you? What does the world need to know about you? But more specifically, how did you get your start in crypto?
Dan Hannum: Sure, sure. So my background already in traditional finance, I went to the University of South Carolina for my undergrad and my MBA and then went up to New York and started working at Goldman Sachs and Morgan Stanley, so more of a traditional finance background. And then most recently was at TD Ameritrade. This was leading up to about late 2014, early 2015. And had kind of got the crypto bug full time around that same period. I’ve been investing personally in crypto since 2012. And then in 2015, was forced enough to make crypto kind of a full time career. So I left TD Ameritrade and moved out to San Francisco and sort of working at blockchain capital, one of the probably earliest and largest funds, and was leading their early stage equity team as an analyst to just analyzing early stage companies and working with the team on evaluating you know, which protocols, which projects would make sense from investment perspective. And that was kind of my first foray into working crypto full time, and was fortunate enough, about a year and a half later, late 2016, early 2017, to be an advisor for an ICO project called Gear, which is a green energy and renewables token and the other advisers on a project for Larry King like the Larry King, Stan Bharti, who runs a company called forests in Manhattan to the multibillion dollar merchant bank in Canada. And then Jim Rogers, he’s one of the, who’s lead, one of the most successful funds in Wall Street, was fortunate enough to get them involved in the project, like most items back in that timeframe, the token value went up pretty quickly. And so they all invested a million, 2 million, 3 million bucks, you know, in six, eight weeks, walked out with 5, 10, 15 million. And we’re really excited about crypto and wanted to get more involvement and had no way to do so. And so kind of parlayed that into Hannum Capital Management, which is a $25 million venture fund we raised in 2016. And then our second fund in 2017, through personal funds of myself, and then our three LPs.
And long story short, that led us to making a ton of real estate investments in core infrastructure plays. And cylinder was one of those investments that we were really excited about. I was using Excel documents, and Google notes and handwritten notes and block explorers and trying to like tie things together. And it was just one a hassle and probably not accurate. And so I thought there would, you know, wouldn’t need to be really successful and really easy to use an accurate tax software for this ecosystem and asset class to evolve. And that was kind of the origin story of Zen ledger. And so we’ve made the investment in Zen Ledger in 2017. And then in 2019, one of the co founders, a guy named Drew Nordstrom, and if that last name sounds familiar, this family owns Nordstroms. His, his uncle had just gotten sick. And he wanted to take some time to really work with their family, all of a sudden making sure that, you know, their generational wealth went from one generation to the next. And I was always looking for, you know, the next entrepreneurial thing and something to really build as much as I loved investing and in meeting with, you know, really great founders, there’s kind of a missing piece of, of my day to day of really building something. And so I ended up joining the team as a CEO in 2019.
Damn, what a journey. That’s like, that’s like the most intricate I think intro, but also really impressive intro that I’ve heard from someone on the podcast in a while. So you’ve been in dip for a while now.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, full time about 10 years professionally, about seven Coming up on eight.
So, working Trad fi moving to Vc, then falling in love with the ICO era, going and work in advise projects, to then raising your own fund, to then deploying that capital. And one of the projects was in Ledger, CO left, you came in and now you’re the COO of Zen ledger, right. So how did how did it go from making an investment to becoming like a full time executive building the project? I assume you are?
Dan Hannum: Yeah, yeah. So the investment was really kind of core to our thesis at ham capital. And I was investing in really great teams, building really great infrastructure for this asset class to evolve. And so we saw accounting and taxes kind of the non sexy but really boring in crucial infrastructure that we would need not only from a retail perspective, but enterprising governments as an asset class, I think, when I first started in 2015, we’re like, you know, 80 to $100 million asset class, which is like, you know, it’s crazy to think that we’re now like two and a half trillion probably go to 25 trillion 250 trillion, right. And so we saw the value in the time and as it kind of highlighted, you know, we were trying to figure out our own taxes. I’ve always tried to be on the compliance side and was forced enough to be able to be early in crypto think when I started out blockchain capitals before eth IpCO. So, like, eth wasn’t even my first ICO. And so was forcing us to make, you know, a considerable amount of money and wanted to make sure that my assets outside of crypto weren’t gonna get affected as I continue to make more money in crypto.
And so yeah, I was just looking around and there, there’s probably like two companies on the market that both were kind of buffed up Excel docs, right. They weren’t really product, there wasn’t really a software, they had no customer support, they had very, you know, small, if any integrations, they’re people that were like, kind of trying to be entrepreneurs, but weren’t really. And so I saw that there is an opportunity to really build a very successful product in this space. But at the time, I mean, I was fresh into fun, too, and wasn’t, you know, looking at building anything, I would say I’m going to invest in this project grade team. So we kind of have like a checklist that we look at when we make investments. And they were kind of hitting all the runs, CEO, you know, had led most businesses at Amazon, Chicago, Booth, NBA, navy, helicopter pilot, CTO, Brian was leading Microsoft development teams for 25 years on Internet Explorer at Microsoft hardening. And then his last three exits were a total of four and a half billion. So a guy who sold companies for a lot of you know, a lot of capital and has led team on the way. And so anyway, as long as you’re kind of checklist of things that we look for, for me invest, and then when the position came open, I was like, alright, well, I already know the team, I know the product and the metrics know what this thing can be. And so my job was to make it from point A to point B.
Got it? Got it. So wow, that’s pretty cool. But from what I understand, you never really dealt with the tax side of things like this is a very tax specific venture. Right? It requires, it honestly requires a certain individual to go into this niche, I could never do it. Honestly, I could never do it. But you came from a Trad fi world, from the VC world to running your own fund to now managing a software product that’s niche for the tax space. So I don’t know I commend you. That’s all I’m saying. I commend you like that’s like, that’s one of the most unsexy things to do. But the most important things to do one of the most important hats to wear in crypto, at least.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, I sit in a unique position of being able to deploy capital full time as an investor and business. And then there’s not that many people in crypto that get to do both. And so I’m very fortunate and lucky. And the nice part about design ledger is we’re not just a specific protocol or platform that focuses on one aspect, we support over 500 different exchanges over 1200 different tokens, over 60 Different blockchains, over 50 different protocols, NFTs and have DAO related products. So as much as like the core accounting and taxing like all it’s pretty boring, like one plus one equals two, right? It’s like, you get live and breathe crypto from A to Z. Everyday all day. Like we’re building the next new protocols. We’re looking at L one, L two, we’re looking at bridges, we’re looking at everything right. And so the nice part about the job is it’s kind of high level seems boring. But the day to day like we have to build for everything that happens because if you don’t support this one token or this one blockchain, your taxes aren’t accurate. And if your taxes aren’t accurate, doesn’t matter, right? No one wants a 98% complete report, they need 100% on parties, we have to build across the ecosystem.
I feel like you have so many people. So the way I understand and ledger, you connect your wallet, and then you’re able to basically populate a dashboard of your transactions, what you spent, and then what you owe kind of thing, right? How much you’ve made, etc. Right? That’s how it works. Okay, so I feel like you guys collect such intricate data. Or you actually are able to siphon such interesting data to see what users are doing on chain in a more like discrete kind of concrete, more visual way, for the most part that many other people might not have. For example, if you see like 95% of your customers using, I don’t know some type of protocol or some type of, I don’t know, product that hasn’t really surfaced to market. For example, you could basically leverage that on the fun side, for example, right and tap into that data. Have you found yourself doing intricate plays like that? Does it work like that? Or am I misunderstanding it?
Dan Hannum: Yeah, no, I mean, the cool part about the ingestion engine that we built is that because of that wide net of support that we have, you can really get an understanding of what’s going on. So imagine like Nansen, but on steroids with real customer data. Yeah, you can see everything that’s going on. We can see what you’re doing, where you’re doing it, what you’re sending, how much you bought it for what you’re selling it for, and as you add 10s of thousands, 100,000 millions of custom that datasets get very large. And so, the fun part is that we can really be one of the few people in crypto that has a very aggregated view of what you’re doing. And so what I mean by that is, if you look at a coin base for a, you know, open scene, right, they only have a sliver of what happened on their exchange or their and so I only see 10 of your 100 trades, or, you know, 10 of your 100 transactions. And because we aggregate every single source that you’ve ever used from your first transaction through your last, and it’s all cleaned up, the accounting and tax IP is like the first step in our journey into a, you know, a different type of company. And so the accounting taps is like a very clear use case. And so once you get that solidified, it’s very easy to layer on portfolio tracking, it’s very easy to layer on, you know, alpha generate event. So partnering with like a coin Gecko or masari, or Delphi, and adding an alpha, adding and trade execution, adding in real time tax analysis. So before you make that trade, what impact can that have. And so the core accounting and tax IP is like phase one of like a 10 phase journey that we’ll continue to layer on. And so that data becomes really important not only on the retail side, but we work with tons of enterprise clients and their data sets. So like Budweiser, NFT dropper, Ralph Lauren’s NFT drop, and then we’re able to use that data sets to build very, very sophisticated AI and ML plot like, you know, integrations within our platform. So you can see and pair up non taxable, so transfers, we can see here up that this asset was bonded, we can pair up that this is two assets going into a liquidity pool and one coming out, and then that one asset going back into another liquidity pool, and then that placeholder token going into an NFT. And so all that takes a lot of analytical frameworks to be able to view and accurately see what’s happening on chain and merge that with your off chain activity.
NFT Tax
So let’s dive into the sexy part the tax questions. Okay, it’s tax season. And part of why I wanted to do this conversation is because I don’t feel like there’s enough people focusing on having or having tax conversation specifically for the Creator side of things, even though a lot of these conversations can be applied to much bigger, I guess problems that’s beyond the niche set of creators, or user sets, excuse me. So what do I need to be asking? Like, what’s going on right now, I know, Biden just came out with an executive order to I don’t know, if you have thoughts on that. Specifically, if you do, I’d love to hear your point of view, we can touch upon that. I’d also love to touch upon, like, what’s happening in the world of NFT tax, for example, I know there was a lot of confusion on that on crypto Twitter for a long time, and people having different conversations, assuming different things. So I really want to give the microphone to you. We can start a bit with Biden’s executive order if you have thoughts on that, and jump more into like more of the traditional tax questions that people tend to approach you with. And then we can kind of go from there.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, yeah, did an interview with New York Times and for yesterday on the guidance, executive order and kind of the ramifications for crypto. And I think one big item specific to crypto tax that many people in industry have been asking about is real time and like real updated guidance on NFTS, on defi, on DAO related issues. And so right now we have to take this conservative approach to kind of fungible taxes, and look how that’s applied to non fungible items. And so there’s not really clear guidance that if I use Ave and I receive a eth in return is at a taxable event, is that not conservatively, you’d likely see that it’s taxable going from, you know, eth to a eth, would likely be a taxable event if you’re getting two different forms of property. And then there’s an aggressive side, right. So a lot of the confusion is not necessarily around how it’s tracked, but how it’s actually treated. And so this ambiguity and gray area creates a lot of frustration or confusion. And so we think this executive order will not only lead to stronger guidance from the IRS, but also from STC also from Fincen, also from other agencies, that will give us guardrails to build on us and move forward. And so I’m definitely kind of excited about it. Because I think most entrepreneurs that we’ve met with, most partners that we partner with, most consumers that we speak with, they just want to understand, you know, the guardrails of what they’re doing, and then allow them to go in and out of it. Right? People are always gonna break the rules. But if you don’t give them the rules, it’s hard to go after them and say you broke, right. So you guys an industry getting better guidance all around on what’s the security, what’s not, what is this? What’s not, what is that? What’s not? is going to be a better boom for us moving forward. And it’s going to allow these net new individuals that are kind of sitting on the sidelines saying, Hey, I don’t want to get into crypto because I’m not sure if that’s going to impact my 401k or my IRA or my, like my, you know, my saving fund for my children.
And so, yeah, we think like from a macro level, I think the clarity will be super important. I think there’s a lot of things to really get ironed out. Right. And so we’ve seen some really good attempts and making logical things that aren’t very logical. What I mean by that in relation to taxes, we’ve had this kind of reporting regime since 2017 of these centralized exchanges, providing 1099 Ks, 1099 miscellaneous forms, 1099 Bs and then the IRS seeing that you are reporting different numbers. And because you’re using a software that aggregates all your activity, you can have a complete record of your numbers versus queries, that’s just going to report Hey, five Bitcoin came in, you know, five Bitcoin came out, and they may not have the basis because you bought on I haven’t yet, or he bought it on Gemini then moved into ledger, then into Coinbase. And so they’re missing a lot of this, the crucial details provide a really great reporting. And I think that’s going to lead to a lot of audits and a lot of people that are, you know, inversely, you know, affected by that. So, I guess my silver lining on that is, I think directionally, we’re heading in a good place. And it’s just like us and you know, firms like coin center and things like that, that can, that are now getting a seat at the table that we can actually talk to these regulators and guide them on, you know, what makes sense and what actually would work in this industry.
Got it? What are some of the biggest questions people come to you with? Let’s start from an NFT point of view. I just bought this board eight, I sold this board eight, I reboughted it at lower price. I’m just giving out scenarios because again, I know very, very little about this stuff, but what are what are the biggest questions that people come to you with? Or the the most common misconceptions that people have around crypto tax or NFT tax? That you tend to be like, Okay, this is what you do. This is how it works XYZ.
Dan Hannum: Sure, yeah. So I think to start off, it’d be really highlight like the three main buckets of tax. Okay, and so for most individuals, there’s a Fiat on ramp along the way. And so going from dollars into crypto has no taxable event to it, I can take one dollars, ten dollars, a million dollars and put it into Bitcoin eth, whatever I want. And there’s no taxable event for that. The second bucket, which is the largest bucket is crypto to crypto, and that’s going for Bitcoin and eth into uni, uni to soul, whatever, you know, your token of choice. And that’s really where most of the defined NFT related things come from. Then the third bucket is going from crypto back into dollars. And I think for most people, logically, that makes sense. Okay, so my crypto I got X amount more dollars or less dollars, I’ve I gained or loss. And so that second bucket crypto to crypto is really where things get a little bit complicated, and where you need to be aware of. And so what I mean by that is typically with a lot of these NFT platforms, you know, open seas, super rare wearable, nifty gateway, whatever your platform of choice, most of the time, the assets that you’re looking at, are going to have only markets with crypto involved. And so you’ll have like slower dapper, where you can buy NBA top shots with like your credit card. And so if you do that, you’re just, you know, you’re logging in your cost basis of the asset, I spent 10,000 on a LeBron James highlight. And now this assets worth 10 grand if I sell it for 12. Okay, bought it for 10 Sold it for 12, super easy.
The crypto to crypto becomes a little bit more challenging. And so what I mean by that is when you’re buying your board eight in your example, how are you buying it? Are you using eth? Are you using a stable coin? Most people are typically using eth for eth based NF T’s. And so when you look at that eth, when did you buy the eth? How long have you had the eth, what was the cost basis of that eth. And so when you are trading your eth, for the NFT itself, that’s a taxable event. And so you need to be able to record, I bought eth for X amount, I’m selling it for x amount, then your NFT has a cost basis. And then when you go from your entity to another NFT, or NFT, back into eth, those things are going to have taxable events to it and you’re going to need to be able to record these stats. That’s where a software can come into play. instead of you trying to track down how much was my eth worth when I originally bought it? How much is it worth when I sold it? What gas fees went into this? You know, what is the value of this NFT. We automate a lot of that for you. And so those are probably the biggest items is just looking at crypto to crypto bucket. When you look at misconceptions. I think the one that we get all the time is anything that happens in my wallet is not track able. And that’s like the farthest thing from the truth right? Anyone that’s looked at ether scan, BSD scans, snow trace, like your blockchain of choice, entering your address into a block Explorer, you can literally see, this came in, that one out, that was a fee. This is the token or contract address you interacted with. And so all these things are public and traceable. As we’re you know, most of these things, obviously, there’s a few blockchains but those are gonna have NFTs on them anyways. So that’s probably the biggest misconception is, whatever I do my meta mask, my rainbow wallet, whatever my wallet of choice is, the IRS can’t track and they’ll never find me. And so that’s really incorrect. And probably the biggest one of the yet.
DAO Formation and Fungible Tokens
What about for groups that form DAOs and then basically issue fungible tokens that get distributed and that incur costs and expenses. And they don’t maybe form it legally, because they treat it in a very efficient order. We just, we could just start this thing, issue a token distributed to everyone, we’ll all put in some capital, and we’re all Anon online. Right? How does how does that work? How does that scenario come into play? Because I feel like that happens a lot in crypto. I don’t know if everybody’s an anon for the most part, but let’s assume okay.
Dan Hannum: Yeah. I mean, whether you are or you’re not, there’s a few different factors to, you know, be aware of as you’re going through a DAO right. And if you’re a creator of DAO. And this is something that we work with all the time, whether it’s through, you know, through friends with benefits, or C club or you know, bank lists, or any DAOs that we’ve already worked with. Typically, you’re going to want to create an entity behind this organization. And so as much as we want to think it’s all on chain, we, you know, we run it through discord, we’ve run it through a snapshot, and that’s it, you’re likely going to have some type of meat space entity that you need to wrap the liability of this organization in. And that could be an S corp, a C Corp, an LLC, and there’s various other forms of organizations or entities that you can create. And so when you look at DAO taxes, you have kind of the entity level. And so the actual entity, what is it? How is it being used as an investment DAO like the DAO or, like, see cloud ventures or whatever? Or is it a collector DAO And so how the DAO is used is going to have an impact on how the accounting attacks are that DAO needs to handle. And so we can sit down with a DAO and help them through entity formation, help them through accounting and tax. And then from a member level, you’ll have other forms of implications, right. So if I’m a DAO member, and I am contributing, whatever is valuable in this organization, whether it’s deal flow for an investment, DAO or whether it’s, you know, curation for a collector DAO, I’m likely going to get paid in this DAOs native token, which is an income at the time of receipt. So I may get paid in club and USDC. And so I need to be able to track that. And then I’m likely going to be using that proceeds to either trade or buy or sell or stake or provide yield on. And so that needs to be tracked. So from a DAO perspective, you have kind of like the DAO entity and the accounting and tax that goes into that, or the DAO is going to take K ones and each member going to take a k one.
What’s a K1?
Dan Hannum: So a k one is a form that gets issued to organizations that have mutual partners. And so LLC is typically may have a k one, but typically your S corp or C Corp will have K ones. And so if you own an entity outright, and you’re not a salary, well, you can still have a salary from k one, but typically owners of businesses will have K ones.
Got it. Got it.
And so long story short, it kind of depends on like, what is a DAO? What is being used for? And then are you starting a DAO? Or are you a member of a DAO? And how can you account for that income and or capital gains that occur through that activity?
Tax Tips for Creators
Got it. So I feel like every question that I’m going to ask you is going to be like very scenario based? Because it really depends. It really depends on the context, it really depends on the activity. It really depends on who’s getting paid what, at what time, at what price, the token was, and all these other factors, I guess in the context of creators, okay. And, and I want to pick your brain because a lot of creators, they’re issuing assets, okay, either their airdropping tokens to their fans, right? Or they’re building DAOs. Like modern day fan clubs around a token of some sort, whether it be a membership pass NFT, whether it be some type of fungible ERC 20 of some sort. What should creators kind of be keeping in mind as they enter crypto as they continue to play in crypto and building crypto, so that they make sure they basically keep track of every single step that they take? And they do it in the most efficient by the book way? Because a lot of us in crypto are anarchists, for the most part, they don’t care. They don’t care about SCC, they don’t, they care about the law, they don’t they don’t give a shit. For this thing to go mainstream as more users come in, not everybody’s as risky, as a lot of the early adopters in crypto. So that’s kind of where I’m coming from?
Dan Hannum: No, I mean, it’s a great question. And, you know, we’ve seen different ways, like when I first started, it was, we’re not paying taxes off the government and then in Puerto Rico, let them come behind me. So we’ve seen different ways, right, but I think the net new user wants to be able to get in, they are typically coming in through NFT’s. And they want to be able to comply. Obviously, we’re gonna have a subset that doesn’t or chooses not to, but in general, most people kind of want to be able to interact with in crypto, earned a bunch of income or enter a rental of capital gains, and just know that they can get, you know, handled on the way out. So as we’ve kind of talked about a little bit today, you know, NFT taxes for consumers are pretty complicated. But creators have a few extra things to worry about. And so as an NFT creator, you’re most likely going to be running a business, even if you haven’t registered one. And that creates a few additional tax responsibilities. And so there’s a few different distinctions between income and expenses that go into that. And so as we talked about earlier, that entity or wrapper that you have is going to be very valuable for you to really explore. And so if you form an LLC and choose to be taxed as a sole proprietor or general partnership, your income and expenses there may report on your schedule C. And that’s a different form than if you are an individual. And so the big thing to be worried about is kind of like how are you wrap you, how are you interacting with this?
And so if I’m an NFT creator, I’m more likely going to want to have some type of legal entity that I operate my business through and not just my address, right? And so that’s probably the biggest one, the ones that we seeing a lot of issues with is having like separate business accounts. So a lot of NFT creators are like, okay, my address is 0x 123. And I’m going to run my personal and my professional things through this address. That’s a huge no, no, because when you need to separate that what happened from your business, and you know, you can’t, because it all flowed in and out of the same wallet. So you’re going to want to use separate wallets or separate business accounts, and really not mix your personal business finances. And that’s going to put you in a really good position. When you get into NFT itself and you look at like minting and selling and NFT. By yourself, it’s pretty straightforward. Typically, it’s can be taxed as ordinary income that you need to report and so you know, let’s say you sell an NFT for five eth and one eth is worth 2500. And so now you have 12,500, in ordinary income to report. And so if you later sell any of that eth, if you have a gain or loss on the basis of that eth, and then you’d be able to duck, the duck gas piece, gas fees, excuse me required to mint that NFT. Or to, you know, consult with another creator of the NFT, maybe on a visual side, or a contractor helping you mint, the NFT and get the contract live. And so that’s the biggest item for creators is really to be able to understand, you know, how are you interacting with in crypto? What type of entity are you using, if you’re not, you should likely have one. And then generally most of the NFT related items for creators are all going to be income that you’re selling. And then that income is going to be taxed in order your income and then track moving forward. So if I sell NFT for eth and I took that eth and put it into compound, you got to be able to track them moving forward.
Crypto-native Business Models
Got it. Okay, so one thing that I do with mint since the genesis of the podcast is I’ve collected all revenue on chain, okay, it’s all connected through a separate address than my personal address. And I’ve done that intentionally without honestly knowing that I felt like at some point, it’s gonna like catch up and there needs to be that distinction. But it’s all been paid out in stable coins too intentionally right, I’ve never accepted any of a native companies native token of some sort all been through USDC, the way I do it is I basically sell sponsorships in the form of NFT’s, depending on the NFT the sponsor buys, determines the level of promotion for the season. And it really works with them sending me USDC, and then me just sending them an NFT, there’s no real place to basically purchase it, quote unquote, intentionally. So in that scenario, I treat that as basically income for the business. Right? Right, it’d be you’d be taxed the same way as if it was a USD payment kind of thing, right? So it doesn’t really change. The only part that gets tricky, I guess, is when things start to fluctuate. And the inputs and outputs at what point you kind of bought in at what price that was at and at what point you sold and what price that was at and how that kind of fluctuated in between. That’s kind of, that’s kind of like where the confusion kind of comes into play.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, that’s going back to misconceptions. I think that’s the biggest one, is that the IRS only cares about your dollars, even if it’s in currency, right. And so if I’m accepting USDC, I’m getting 10k 50k, whatever, you know, your sponsor rate is, and so that’s just USDC, right. And so you’re not going to have a lot of fluctuation, if any, maybe if you have like USDT, maybe you’ll have like, you know, .99 or 1.01. Like it’ll fluctuate a little bit, but relatively not much. And so when you start to collect eth or crypto, that’s where you start to run into issues. And so that’s a big misconception all the time, right? Even on the investor side, I bought, I minted this asset for money, I sold it for two eths, I must have had a profit, right? Maybe you minted it for money when it was trading at 5k. You sold it for two eth when it was trading at 2k. So you bought it for 5k. You sold it for 4k, you went from one eth to two eth. But you lost $1,000. So the artist doesn’t care that you went from money to two eth, they care that you bought it for five, you sold it for four. And so that happens on the flip side, right? I buy it for 20, I sell it for 80, I must have had a loss. Maybe you bought it for 20 when he was 1000. And you sold it for 80,000 when eth was worth 3000, you bought it for 10 you sold it for 24. And so you have a gain even though you lost Ether and so to kind of circle back to your side, if you’re accepting and stable, you’re going to be very straight. Yeah, but if you’re not getting eth today, and then eth becomes, it goes back to 45 or 5k tomorrow, and you sell that Eth you just made a gain on what, you received it as and what it’s trading worth. So just to give some perspective to like the fun with crypto.
Got it? What do you think the IRS is gonna start determining things in eth? Is there a future or that will happen? And taxes based off the point basis of eth versus the dollar amount?
Dan Hannum: I don’t think so. I think the most likely is that though except stable for taxes. Right? And so you’ll be able to pay your taxes in USDC or if, you know as you kind of walked it mentioned earlier the executive order. It sounds like we’re likely going to put a lot of effort into a US dollar that’s not USDC and so like a government backed stable coin. So I imagine they’ll likely allow you to use stables, but for the same reasons that it’s tricky for us, the government wants that as well, right? So if they, if you owe them a million bucks, and you give them a million eth and, you know, crashes 99% tomorrow, that million bucks isn’t worth a million bucks. They have to go pay their bills, and they’re contractors and build roads and hospitals, all that fun stuff with dollars. And so if I had to guess, like, we’re likely to see stable coin related tax payments. Wait, we see anything that has major volatility to it?
Government Backed Stable Coins
Got it. Got it. Are you for a government backed stable coin?
Dan Hannum: No.
No? Okay. Why?
Dan Hannum: I mean, I’m not for really government involved in a lot of things. That’s funny, leads a crypto. But like, we’ve seen time and time and time again, the government is irresponsible with the funds that they have. And that’s, that’s most people’s biggest pain point and taxes, right? It’s not just that you’re paying taxes, it’s that your taxes aren’t being used adequately. And so we pay X amount and like the roads don’t work, the hospitals are still over staff, like are understaffed, right, the library doesn’t have new books, like, it’s, I’m speaking generally. But I think in general, most people probably don’t have a problem necessarily with just tax is how much is getting paid? Because they’re not spending it and using it wisely. And there’s no, you know, there’s no transparency into that. And so I am not for having the government dictate the funds anymore. That was kind of how I first got into crypto in 2012 was like, wow, we just went through a major housing crisis and a major recession. And we saw that the government has continued to be irresponsible with any type of budget constraints that they have.
The debt ceiling isn’t a debt ceiling, right. It’s something that you can raise and lower. That’s not like stuck, right. And so we’ve seen even in the pandemic, billions and trillions of dollars being printed. And so I don’t put any faith into a government backed currency and 99% of my net worth is crypto backed. And so I would put my trust and algorithm over a senator any single day. Yeah, do I think that like stable coins have a lot of value? Yes. Do I think that there’s a lot of challenges with our stable coins? Yes. Like we’ve seen the FUD around tether forever, right? Is it actually back next to positive tether. Crash tomorrow, like the industry will be in really, really, really bad shape. And so I think we need a stable coin. And now we see different forms. So you have like algorithmic stable coins, you have dollar backed or like collateral denominated stable coins. So I’d rather have entrepreneurs create actual products, then rely on the government to give us like a CBDC, and then you start to see like, China’s DC EP, and like, the social score metrics, if I don’t do this, I may get shut off from my life. Yes, kind of Black Mirror. I’m all for removing any type of financial capability from the government. Because I’ve shown time and time again, they can’t know they can responsibly handle it.
Ethics Around a Human Stock Market
Do you actually, do you truly believe in the extremist version of a black mirror episode happening, where we do have like a point space system on ourselves? It’s a lot of what I talked about in season one based off like creating a human stock market with all these social tokens, these creator coins, and what that means in the grand scheme of things. I think we saw like a glimpse of that with the launch of BitClout and all the tokenized people that that were on the platform without their consent, for example. But do you really see that happening as a reality?
Dan Hannum: I mean, I think there are certain steps that lead us more toward that direction, right. And so when you look at what China is trying to do with their stable coin, it gets pretty black Nearly pretty quickly, right? You can’t ride the bus because you’re like, your digital currency score isn’t high enough. You can’t own house because of this. We have like web two, like analogies, right? You have credit scores in real life, you have income levels, all that fun stuff. And so I think that the only setback that we have within crypto is that some of these things can be used, you know, in kind of nefarious ways, right? And so if I have a token, and we’ve seen this, just like Alex, I feel like like Alex, Alex, you run into issues where like, people think they now own you, right? Like, I invested X amount of eth into your token, and now I dictate what you do with your luck, like, yeah, I don’t want to, I don’t want to add them to like now have 10% of Dan tokens, and you get to say, like, what I eat for breakfast, and like when I go to sleep? So, I think you can get like kind of crazy, but in general, like these technologies can be used for good and bad. And that’s the same thing we hear all the time with crypto is you know, it’s used for money laundering and terrorist and Russian oligarchs. Right, like, that’s the point right? No one’s saying that you can or can’t there’s no guard like.
VR is also used for that, too. Like it doesn’t that doesn’t change the game.
Dan Hannum: You should use ours.
Yeah. Like, only the criminals will be using cash. Down the line. Yeah.
Dan Hannum: Like you should use cash if you want to do anything illegal. And like, disclaimer, don’t do anything illegal. We see this all the time, right? Like, I’m gonna you know, I’m gonna take eth as like a form of payment for like ransomware. Like Good Luck. Yeah, we just saw like the DAO hack get surfaced six years later and couldn’t find exactly who did it right. We’ve seen that the Bitfenix hack, we’ve seen those cryptopia Like things happen, and they are traceable on chain. And so every time you see like a wrecked article, like they track it on chain and like, here to there, and then we went through like tornado or tumbler and mixer, and now it’s here. Yeah. And so yeah, using crypto for like illegal activities is not very smart.
ZenLedger and High-End Luxury NFT Drops
Is not the move. And can we talk about the experience in the in the projects that you guys launched on the enterprise level with Budweiser, Ralph Lauren, can you talk more about your experience doing more more high level NFT drops with, with more normies in the space? What that experience was like, and what were some of the biggest questions or hesitations they had going into NFTs that you kind of picked up early on?
Dan Hannum: Yeah, so I think we’ve seen a bit an explosion of web two or corporate clients that want interaction within crypto, right. And so you see, like, the micro strategies, and the Tesla setup, put their, you know, balance sheet into Bitcoin. And so that was kind of the first early phase, right, and you started to see more institutions that want allocations to eth or access into eth. And for a lot of them, the best way to do that is to use your existing brand in the tone NFT drop and collect eth that way. And so because of the robustness on our platform, we’ve been able to really leverage this core IP with, you know, 60 blockchains, and all these different tokens to these enterprise clients that come to us and say, Hey, we are Budweiser, we are alpha N, we’re a fortune 50, fortune 500 company, we can’t afford to get this wrong. Like if we’re going to do an NFT launch, we need to be able to track every single thing, account for it and pay taxes accurately on that, because we don’t want the other $50 billion business that we run to be affected at all. And so the value that we provide to them is providing this accounting and tax tool that allows them to seamlessly create these NFT drops and real world experiences using crypto and account for that easily and accurately. And so we’re excited about the future of x, we think as and you know, Nikes getting into the metaverse and like digital shoes, we think these big brands are can continue to get into crypto not only through a NFT drops. But as crypto becomes more of a payment system, we’re seeing more and more companies accepting crypto as a payment, for mortgages, for auto loans for dah dah, dah. And so all these companies gonna need to account for that. And so we’re kind of primed in a really good position as the next web two company comes into crypto, their 80 year old accountant named Bob in the back office, like has no clue what any of this stuff is, right? And so they’re gonna need a software and the team that like lives and breathes this stuff, to be able to help them and make sure that they’re there okay.
Got it. So what was it? So you guys came into the picture after the drop, or you guys holding their hand during the drop as well for both Budweiser.
Dan Hannum: A little bit of both. So as you can imagine, like, imagine these, these major corporate clients, they don’t want to get into something without knowing every detail, right? They wanted to know who the devil was, what the contractor this was, what happens, who has control what to do? Can someone steal this from you? Like, they are very curious, but also very under educated in crypto, right? And so they want people to kind of guide them through that. And so I think it’d be like extremely, extremely risky to drop an NFT if you are a fortune 50 company and have no idea what you’re doing right? So we are able to kind of sit with them and be like, Okay, what is your idea? Right? What do you want to do? Is it a one 100? A one of 10? A one to 10,000? Do you want to provide any type of like access to events? Like how do you want this NFT to be working and what is the utility to NFT because we need to account for that. And so we were fortunate enough to be kind of like early on with them and kind of guiding them through the process largely from the accounting and tax side like I’m not the creative director I wasn’t like here’s how it should look or like you should use this color, that color but it’s like as you sell these NFT’s you need to account for that and make sure that you’re paying your taxes on that. So yeah, you know, we’re fortunate to be able to kind of sit there and really work with them and make sure that before they want to launch before the men actually happened that everything was kind of already checked off and they could just go.
Deciphering between a personal transaction and a business transaction
Got it. You know as you were, you’re telling me about this example on you holding your hands, another question that came to mind with doing stuff through your personal wallet versus a business wallet. Let’s say you actually end up conducting all of your activities, your business activities through you’re your main dot eath personal wallet, okay. Tax season comes, you need to start deciphering what was a personal transaction versus a business transaction? Is there any real way to do that efficiently and to kind of separate the noise without you having to individually pick each transaction out taking account on a spreadsheet? Or can a software like like yours do something like.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean ideally you’re using multiple Andre and that’s like the easiest.
Ideally, right? But a lot of people don’t necessarily think like that, right? They think okay, it’s just wallet I’ll just send it to this. I don’t even know I can have multiple wallets in my meta mask like, you know.
Dan Hannum: We’ve seen some horror stories, especially around like shared wallet, right? Me and Adam want to go in and buy a pump. So you give me 50 eth own the punk. And now like who’s responsible? The taxes, right? Technically the person who owns the wallet. So now I need to call you and be like, Yo, the pump we bought for 50 is now worth 500 eth. And you owe me 200 grand because I have a 500 grand tax bill. There’s no documentation, there’s no legal.
And that’s without you selling that happens even when you, like that always happens if you sell.
Dan Hannum: Right now there’s no unrealized gain or loss. So if I buy acid A for 10 bucks, it’s not worth a million bucks. I don’t owe 900 grand right? Only when I sell or dispose, okay, well, we’ve seen a lot of horror stories with that, like, oh, I met my buddy, you know, Ruby, whatever on Discord and like, they wanted to buy this NFT with me, so I gave them 10 eth or they gave me 10 eth into my wallet, I made all the transactions in my own wallet. And now my tax bill says I owe 200 grand, because we bought and sold and put NFTs. And so it’s like, you’re going to see if that guy is actually guy or girl is actually a friend when you call them and say I have 100,000 million dollar tax bill and you owe half of this. Because you already gave them their benefit, right? So it gets like, what the personal stuff, there is ability within the software to separate out what is yours and what’s not. So you can go on and say okay, on August 2, I know that, you know, in my head, I had 10 grand and eath being paid for this service on September 7, I had this and you can separate out and ignore those and then just have just your personal and then just have those transactions imported into the into another account, and basically ignore all your personal ones. And so you know, ideally, you’re using separate ones, but if you are using a joint one, there is ways to kind of separate.
Bonus Questions
Got it. Got it. Yo, this is super helpful. I’m trying to understand what are the questions should I be asking you that I’m not asking you?
Dan Hannum: I mean, I think we covered a decent amount, right? I guess the ones that we didn’t really cover is like defi related activity. Right.
Okay. Let’s touch on that for a minute.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, that’s a question we get all the time, right. And as we talked about earlier, there’s no clear guidance, there’s no like IRS section two, paragraph three that says if you use Ether Ave, like, here’s how it’s treated. And so the defi can get pretty complicated depending on how you’re using it. And the example I always use is more of like a placeholder token versus like just yield. So what I mean by that is, let’s say you have 10 eth playing around, and you want to put that 10 ether into compound or uniswap, or Ave whatever, or you want to put it into like a block phi or Celsius or Nexo. And so even though you’re earning yield or interest on that, you can have different types of tax treatments. And because on the centralized side, you’re not really getting a placeholder token, I put in eth, and I get, you know, point one eth along the way, whatever, and I get back eth, you’re just gonna get taxes interest, at the time of receipt through those payments, the defi side gets a little bit more complicated, because if I put my eth into a liquidity pool, or just, you know, loan it out, I can typically get a placeholder token in return. So my eth Into Ave I get eight, put it into compound and get CDs. And so for conservative perspective, swapping one asset for another asset, it’s gonna have a taxable event. And so even depositing liquidity could have a taxable event on that eth and then you’ll have the income generated along the way. And then typically another asset, new asset coming back. And so the defi stuff can get pretty complicated depending on how you’re using the defi, are you doing borrowing or doing lending or your loans. How are you using this liquidity and then mapping the gas fees along the way? So for some items, if I want to use like tote Mac, for example, and it’s my first time I have to spend like 200 bucks just to like approve the contract. And so how is that tax and then I deposit my liquidity. And so the defi side gets, not necessarily complicated to track, but it’s just a few things to think through as the way that the defi protocol operates can have a difference in how the taxable events are treated and how they’re accounted for.
Crypto Tax Loopholes
Got it. So another question that we didn’t touch upon, what are the loopholes Dan? What do people like to take advantage of that might not be so clear? What should we be keeping an eye out? What should we what should we quote unquote, abuse? Walk me through the loopholes.
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, the best thing to views right now is the wash sale rule in crypto. And so most of what we talked about in that second bucket crypto to crypto becomes this hot topic because the IRS in 2014 stated that crypto is going to be treated as property. And that’s why if you sell Bitcoin to eth, you’re selling property and getting a new piece of property right. And so because of distinction there’s property and not currency or commodity, it kind of opens up to this complexity, right. But it also opens you up to a nice loophole, whereas in stocks because it is securities, if I have a stock that’s trading at 80% down, I can sell it and buy it back today. I have to sell it. Wait 30 days, hope it’s still down and then buy it back. Do with crypto because of the volatile, the volatility bonus of the asset, you can have assets that are up down 20% 40% 60% in the day. And because these aren’t treated as securities, but property, there’s no wash sale rule in crypto yet.
And so if I buy eth today, and it drops 80%, tomorrow, let’s say I buy two eth today drops 80%. Tomorrow, I sell my two eth, I lock in an 80% loss, then I buy back that same eth the same day at the very, very low cost. And so I get to lock in these losses along the way. And so that’s a nice part about crypto is because we’re up and down even like the first quarter, right, we’ve been Up 80% down, 6% Russian Ukraine happened, we went up and then down like we’re getting in such a choppy market right now. So the experienced operators and investors are using our tax loss harvesting reports to show what’s going on. So we’ll actually show you once you import your change in wallet and say, hey, Adam, you have these five assets that you own that are all trading down at 60 at 40, 20. Here’s how much you can sell it, that’s a lock in the loss, here’s how much loss you can lock in. And so you’ll use this die to then start to make these these losses. And so that’s something that you need to be aware of throughout the year, it’s not just buys and sells, right, it’s each buy in each sale has an impact, if I buy for 10. If I have a $10 gain and $1 loss, I have a $2 gain. And so all these gains and losses go into play to get your total, you know, number at the end of the year. So the biggest loophole in crypto is using tax loss harvesting and using the ability that there’s no wash sale rule right now to maximize your losses throughout the year.
Got it? So that’s the biggest loophole what are some of the most like more hidden loopholes that tend to benefit a lot of people because I feel like Dude, you’re so well connected. You have such a voice in this space, you have a big network, for sure people come to you for tax advice, without a doubt. So that’s like the most, that’s the most I guess, known loophole? What are some of the more discreet low key loopholes? For example, if any?
Dan Hannum: Yeah,I think that the next one probably is donations. Right. Okay. And so a lot of people that have made wealth in crypto want to have like a the ability to provide wealth and give back to their communities or organizations that mean much to them. And so if you donate your crypto to a 501 C three or a charitable organization, you can write off that crypto. And so that’s really impactful, right? So if I have 100 eth sitting around and I have a million dollar tax bill, and I donate 100 eth worth a million dollars. I just kind of erased my tax bill while giving back to an organization that really needs it. So donations are really valuable, not only from an accounting tax perspective, but from the actual impact, right? Your organization of choice, some are providing she was a kid, so now she lives or like health care or like food or housing, right? Yes. But donations are a big one, because you get not only the tax benefit, but also the real world impact of your wealth being diverted into better use cases than just sitting in your Metamask.
What’s the downside of donating them? Why don’t people why don’t, if that if, because that sounds like really golden on the surface, right? So why don’t more people do it? You think?
Dan Hannum: I think it depends on like the person, right? And it’s the same thing in real world, right? I can make a donation today to the Red Cross or something, right, and get it right off through my taxes. People don’t do it because like, unfortunately, people just don’t care, right? We all like want to post thing on Instagram. But when it comes time to like, given our own dollars to someone, other than ourselves, we don’t really do it. So it’s unfortunately, whether it’s crypto or non crypto, a lot of people just don’t want to donate and that’s your choice, your capital, right. But within crypto, you’re gonna have this really big element. And I think most of the people in crypto that we’ve dealt with really enjoy that fact and have some kind of greater costs outside of just adding an extra zero to the bank account. I think you have this kind of zero to one of like, I get into crypto want to make some money I got like student loans or like a mortgage or car payment, you get kind of comfortable level of like, okay, I’ve I hit off on a few amenities I did a few smart things and now have wealth, right? So once you get to a stage of having wealth, it’s like, Okay, the next million dollars into my bank account, it’s like, my life’s not changing, right? Yeah, have the house, have the car, have like the child’s you know, payments are all handled like, so I want to give that wealth and my time and expertise back. And so, you know, I think for most people, they just, they either one don’t have the wealth to give away, or, you know, or to they just aren’t aware that they can do that and locked it in. And so we work with like the giving block and other organizations to kind of highlight that. And so within our software, you can actually mark that. So if I see.
So, I was about to ask that right now. I feel like that’d be such a good add on to the to the product.
Dan Hannum: Oh, it’s beautiful, right? So I can let it go on and say on like December 10 of 2021, you know, I donated 10eth to my favorite charity and I can mark it a donation and they’ll provide your donation form and so that you can have the charity sign off on that. So, the nice part of the software’s will automate that for you and allow you to donate.
Got it. That’s really cool. I feel like so many, so many Anons online, so many people thinking they’re not going to get caught. But if it was like a few years back then maybe, but now it’s so advanced to the point where you could literally trace anything. I feel like almost anything. There’s projects like, like chainalysis, right, that come to mind that are just like the FBI on chain. They’re able to crack down and provide insight to things that you would have probably never imagined could have been surfaced.
Dan Hannum: It’s crazy. You definitely have those like blockchain kind of focused forensic analytics, like a chain assets, if you’re an elliptic, whatever. Yeah. But then I think for most people, like, what I always bring up is like, Have you ever used eth scan? Have you ever used Nansen? Right? Like, there’s public tools that you can use and see that like, it’s not like, you don’t need a billion dollar business and like a chain analysis to go look on chain, like, I can literally look at your wallet and see every single USDC payment you’ve received for your sponsorships, and see what your liability is, right? And so the on chain traceability is super easy. And because it’s the IRS and the government, they move slow, but they’re not necessarily stupid as we think they are. Right? And so they have the benefit of time. And so if you file your taxes this year, and you didn’t file in 17, 18, 19, 20, and you file okay, that I did x, y, and z, we can like look back on ours and look back and see, okay, well, you bought 10 eth in 2017. We sold it for Bitcoin in 2017. You didn’t follow that, right? And so it’s easy to look back. And then what we’ve seen in the last few years is really the IRS kind of allowing you to really, like fuck yourself. Yeah. And what I mean by that is, if you looked in 2019, they moved this question to the top of the schedule one, they ever bought, sold, traded or acquired a virtual currency. And so the schedule was kind of a subset of reports. So not every American had to use that. But then in 2020, and then again, in 2021, the very first question on your tax form for every single United States citizen, is that question. Have you ever bought, traded or cargo currency? And you click no. And the answer is yes. That’s tax fraud. And so if I’m like, Oh, I use Coinbase. I bought etg, I sent it to a meta mask. I’ve done all the stuff in meta mask, you’ll never know. Coinbase is sending out 1099, they’re saying, hey, Adam bought and sold crypto with us. And then they’re looking at their attack from and saying, I didn’t buy yourself crypto, and I’m saying no, immediate audit, immediate, like penalties, immediate, like jail time, like.
But how do they? How do they know once it hits? Okay, I get you expose yourself from once a KYC exchange to anonymous Metamask wallet. Okay. But even then there’s, how can you like make the argument that it was my anonymous wallet that I sent money to? And it’s not some other random anonymous wallet that I just paid for whatever activity?
Dan Hannum: Yeah, I mean, that’s like part of the the way that the IRS works, right, is that all this is self provided? Same thing with with normal taxes, right? If you work at a restaurant, and I get paid in cash every night, I can easily not report that right? Is that legal? No. If the IRS comes knocking and says, like, you know, looks at your pay stub, and you’re making $2 an hour who you just bought a $40,000 car, they’re gonna like put two and two together, right? There’s always a ways around it, like not reporting your taxes is an option. It’s just fun one I wouldn’t recommend right. And so the ability happens because you are self reporting your activity just like you do with your w two, I take my w two, and I file it and I say, here’s what I earned. And they start to see major discrepancies, then they’re gonna audit that and investigate it, right? So if I say I earn 100,000, and I go buy a $2 million house, where does that come from? And they’re gonna look in and see, okay, I had another business, I wasn’t reporting.
And so it’s pretty easy to kind of track the flow of funds. And so the biggest thing that they do is they allow you to indict and incriminate yourself. And so if you don’t report it, the IRS isn’t like, oh, okay, like, they’re gonna go look and say you did X, Y, and Z. And so especially now, when we look at on chain identity, you know, identity and reputation, that’s having a kind of adverse side effect into your ability to pay taxes, right? So if I look at Adam dot eth, and you’ve associated your five addresses with Adam dot eth, pretty hard to say you that’s not you, you just publicly announced that these are all you. And so I was just like reputation comes into play, it’s gonna be easier and easier to track because you’re going to associate that this address belongs to Dan dot eth And so it’s we’re only kind of putting ourselves into more of a prison, you know, presentation of what we’re doing. And I think like you talked about, like, most people, I don’t think are that, you know, turned off by it. They just want to know that they can use a software that will automate and do it for them and they just want to eat or DJ and into whatever they want. And throughout the year, and at the end of the year, just get it done for them. It’s got the value that we provide is like you don’t have to worry about it. Go use Tomfan, go use open see, go use superare, go use whatever and know that you can just ingest that into a software. Hopefully you made a million or 10 million or 50 million or whatever, pay your fair share and move on.
Outro
Yeah, Dan, I think that’s a perfect place to end off. But before I let you go really quick, where can we find you? Where can we find Zen edger? What do we need to know about Zen ledger? It is tax season. So I want to provide the best value to the audience. So give me the takeaway. Sure.
Dan Hannum: So I’m available on Twitter, D Hannum, d h, a n u m, maybe we’ll link it in the show notes or whatever, we’re available on Twitter Zenledgerio So if you follow our Twitter account, we’ll you know, we’ll highlight Twitter spaces or whatever we’re doing, discord AMA’s you know, new product releases or whatever. And then our website is zenledger.io So the nice part about our business is you can ingest all your activity for free, there’s no credit card upfront, I can sign up for free import my coin base, my meta mask, whatever. And then look at my high level short term long term gains and if I make a pretty accurate looks like close then I pay for the tax reports and I get all like the magic behind the scenes. So you can try us out for free we love to help you, you know our support team standing by 12 hours a day seven days a week via email, phone and chat. So if you have you know, need questions or if you have questions or need help, let us know. Then the other, only other thing I’d say is we do have tax professionals and tax attorneys on staff, so if you’re like hey man, I’m you know, I’m a DJ and I don’t want to do any of this. I want to pay someone to do it for me. Let our team do it like will literally sit down with you. We’ll get your, you will have you import the API’s, we’ll have you give us a list of your addresses, will import it, will reconcile it for you, will handle all your non crypto and crypto taxes solid. Yeah. So if you’re just like, I don’t want to do any of this pay our team will do it all for you. Make sure you’re all squared away and then you’re getting a CPA or tax attorney signing off at all this stuff is accurate. So we’re definitely here and happy to help.
Dan you are a legend. Thank you for being on. We should do this again sometime soon.
Dan Hannum: Absolutely. Thanks for having me on.
I’ll cut it there. Awesome.
