How To Build Your Web3 Community Using Free NFTs

This episode is a little different as I was on the other side of the microphone. I went on The Unstoppable Podcast hosted by Josh Gordon for a very interesting conversation.
This episode is a little different as I was on the other side of the microphone. I went on The Unstoppable Podcast hosted by Josh Gordon for a very interesting conversation.

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Mint Season 6 episode 25 was a little different as I was on the other side of the microphone for this one. I went on The Unstoppable Podcast hosted by Josh Gordon where we talked about my early days getting started in crypto, tips for community building via NFTs, the value behind issuing free NFTs, my creator playbook, and so much more.

I hope you guys enjoy our conversation.

Time Stamps

  • 02:22 – Intro
  • 05:34 – Three Tips For Creators Getting Started in Web3
  • 09:15 – Free NFTs
  • 12:38 – Creators Serving as a Good Example in Web3 Today
  • 17:20 – Adams Stack and How it All Works Together
  • 21:19 – Deciding Whats Gated and What Is Not
  • 24:14 – Collecting Wallet Addresses
  • 27:54 – Selling Sponsorship NFTs
  • 31:31 – Lessons Learned Creating Podcast NFTs
  • 36:46 – What Should Your First NFT Be?
  • 38:37 – Platforms to Help Creators Get Started with NFTs
  • 41:24 – What is Bello?
  • 44:40 – Three Ways That On-Chain Data Can Help Inform a Creator Strategy
  • 49:59 – What’s the Best Way to Get My First 1000 True Fans As a Web3 Writer?
  • 52:03 – A Creator That Inspired Adam
  • 53:33 – Craziest Thing We’ll Be Doing In the Metaverse 5 Years Down the Road
  • 55:46 – Outro

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GMGM, welcome to the unstoppable podcast. My name is Josh Gordon. I’m your host today, man. I’m excited for this conversation. We’re joined by Adam Levy, founder of Bello and host of minutes. It’s a podcast all around the creator economy. So, Adam, how you doing today?

Adam Levy: Dude, I’m feeling good. Thank you for having me on. I think this is my second debut on somebody else’s podcast. So, it’s still very weird for me to be on the other side of the microphone. Nonetheless, I’m super excited to be here. Thank you for having me.

You’re welcome. Yeah, I think it’s cool to get other podcast host perspectives, especially yours because I view you as so much more than a host, I really view you as a web three creator. And personally, I think as someone who’s experimenting with content creation and thinking about ways to implement, like web three and NFTs into what I do, I think there’s a lot to learn from you. So, I’m approaching this conversation is really like what can Josh learn from another creator in the web three space. And I’m really hoping that anyone listening to this pod, if like, if you’re a creator, you’re having some of the same questions that I have. So, a lot to unpack today.

Adam Levy: Let’s do it. I’m ready. Let’s dive in. 


Okay, so to start off, just give everyone a little brief background of you. And you know, how you got into crypto and hosting mint in the first place, and then eventually, you know, founding Bello, though, I know that’s a big journey. But if you can give me the quick and dirty synopsis that would help set the stage.

Adam Levy: Yeah. Okay, so I got into crypto 2017. What initially caught my attention was seeing Bitcoin at 20k. And I was like, how is something that’s publicly accessible, like publicly trading at such a high price, but what sort of kept me in the door was seeing what you could do beyond just day trading. So, I came across a few companies that were helping musicians at the time, sort of like redistributing royalty payments, and I thought that was really cool. Because I’m a drummer, you can tell by the drum set behind me, and I was like, alright, there’s more than just day trading. So, I was like, that was enough. This was around the time where I kind of got into college as well. So, I transferred to USC, winter break came about, we had about four weeks off, and I just took that entire four weeks, just read the Bitcoin white paper and try to consume as much content as I could around the subject, only to later write in Facebook groups on campus. Like if you want to learn about peer-to-peer payments on like a Saturday at 3pm, meet me in this room, I’m doing a whiteboard session. And we’re going to dive in and like surprisingly enough, like three people came and did it again the following weekend, like five people came and yeah, around that time also, my friend had kicked off like the crypto club on campus, but he was leaving, so I took it over. 

And yeah, we had about a community of like, I think like 300, 350 students or something like that. And then we would do like white paper round tables. We did recruit events for Coin base, we did a hackathon. We did all these types of things, and got my first internship around that time working for a VC fund, called Draper going home. They’re based in LA, and then even like, worked in Europe for a little bit with an IOT and blockchain startup in Vienna and did all sorts of stuff. But I guess like my most like extensive sort of professional work in this space was working at the fund. When I came back from Europe, I joined Tim’s fund full time, it was really cool because I was the only full-time employee over there between three partners and I did everything from like running this weekly event called blockchain and booze, which kind of kicked off my podcasting start to fundraising, to doing deal memos to all sorts of stuff. So yeah, I mean, I guess I can also get into how bello sort of came into the picture as well or you would like me to stop there.

You know what, let’s pause there and introduce Bello, I think as we get closer to that section of the pod, but I think it’s interesting how writing really was your, writing and this in this club. I mean, you talked about getting the club to 350 members and the big saying and crypto creator economy is like your 1000 true fans and you started getting 300 people into didn’t just something you were talking about. And that experience probably translates to a lot of the things you’re doing now as a as a content creator, I imagine.

Adam Levy: Yeah, very, very true. So, the newsletter was like a big piece of like getting information out. So, all the students were sort of subscribed to the newsletter, and I had a few friends that we were just like managing the weekly sort of cadence of the of the organization. What’s funny is that we weren’t like an official student org. And we couldn’t get money from USC, for whatever reason, but we still operated like, we didn’t give a shit. Like, we’re just like, we’re gonna make something happen. Yeah.

Three Tips For Creators Getting Started in Web3

Okay, cool. Well, good background. So, let’s start diving in to the creator economy even more. And you know, with the mint pod, you’re getting to talk to artists, entrepreneurs, creators of all types, like, whether you’re not just a musician, right? Whether you’re a writer, a photographer, or doing art, there’s all types of creation you can do online today. So, I’d like to start off with getting insight onto what you’ve learned, you know, as a host, talking to all these fantastic guests. So, if there’s three tips that we’re giving to people who want to build web three community or get into the creator economy themselves through NFTs, you know, what kind of tips can we give to these people starting out? And if we can list three, that’d be phenomenal.

Adam Levy: Yeah. Okay. So, I think the first one is, don’t be afraid to experiment, because there are no rules here. Nobody sort of remembers your failures, unless it’s like an incredibly huge rug pull, or I don’t know, defi hack of some sort. So, like, if you’re just like a small-time creator, just due to the space coming into crypto, join as many communities as you can, right and just like try to experiment yourself, try to issue some NFTs, free NFTs, fail, get rejected and like just keep like tampering and tinkering with what’s possible. I think that’s number one, don’t be afraid to experiment. Number two, this is something that Daniel Allen taught me, who is like a really, really well known successful, like web three native musician and producer in the space. He had a successful campaign that did incredibly well. And you know, he did it with like, 200 Twitter followers. And he’s like, you know, people may seem like I did something that was an overnight success. But I really did my homework and put six months into sort of climbing across different discord channels, going to different events, doing one on ones with people, before I had a drop. So, the second point is before trying to attempt something yourself, that’s like really big and grandiose that you expect some type of sizable outcome, really do your diligence and homework and meet other people in the community that might end up just collecting from you down the line. And the third tip is, I like seeing people who consistently show up, that could be either from like, consistently showing up with your time or consistently showing up with your money. So, either continuously collecting other things from other creators, right and building like social capital, or kind of like being involved in different communities with your time and using like governance power, right to kind of contribute on chain. Don’t be afraid to experiment, do your homework, and be consistent. I think those are the top three things. Yeah.

I like that a lot. And I feel like tip number two on that community building, kind of comment and showing up is that still, so you still think that’s a valuable thing to do? Even as we’re moving a little bit away from, I feel like these discord groups, I mean, discord a year ago, everyone was saying, you gotta be there, you gotta be paying attention to all these discord channels. Everyone kind of got discord burned out. So, but you’re still feeling maybe it’s not even discord only, maybe as Twitter and other platforms where conversations are happening.

Adam Levy: If it’s not discord, then it’s Twitter. If it’s not Twitter, then it’s farcaster. If it’s not farcaster, then it’s Leinster, right and general lens protocol, if it’s not those platforms, and it’s Telegram, right? Just try to be on the pulse and find a way to get involved. I think a good place to start is sort of listening to things like your stuff, right? And just listening to these individuals. That and not necessarily me, but other people that you’ve had on, right? Other content on there. Right, that sort of give guidance as to like how to related content or like educational pieces as to how to take those first steps. And through the dialog, you’ll find out like different tidbits as to where you should be spending your time. I just listed a bunch as well, right? That extends beyond discord. Yeah.

Free NFTs

Sure. So, another tip, maybe a bonus one, is I wanted to really ask you and I was wondering if you would bring it up in your top three as free NFTs, because it’s something I’ve seen you do really well, that I’m really interested in. And so maybe this isn’t the one of the first three tips you know, a creator gets to, let’s say, you know, they’re here, they’ve experiment it, they’re community building, they’re showing up, they’re putting some of their money where their mouth is, right? How do you then think about free NFTs as an entryway into the web three creator economy or community building?

Adam Levy: I think free NFTs are like the ultimate sort of either Trojan horse or gateway for creators who don’t really understand mechanism, design, pricing, all these additional things that are required to sort of know to know, to kind of like issue a successful page drop. And the reason why I think free NFTs are so beneficial and why I’ve sort of led my content strategy and my community building strategy around it, is because it’s so effortless, right? It’s so it’s so much more powerful to be able to give something before you take something, right. And I’m a big believer on that, whether it’s like through giving my content out for free, right, giving it free NFT. And would that free NFT, you get additional free content, and just find a way to continuously provide value, before asking for something in return, I think goes a long way. So, there’s a great example that I like to reference, her name is Queen George. She’s also a web three native music artist, she’s been in the space for I think, almost two years now, maybe a year and a half a little over that, whatever, doesn’t matter. I remember in the hype cycle of the bear market, we tried to do a pay drop, where we got inspired by Justin Blau, iconic drop and all the other campaigns he sort of consulted shortly after and tried to replicate a site based off that and do a live concert, essentially for people to attend online during COVID. And the access way to kind of get the private link to view the live stream concert was by purchasing an NFT. And there are five different tiers. And to be frank, they were relatively expensive, her audience kind of got really confused. They were messaging and replying on Instagram, like what the hell is an NFT, I just want to watch her perform. 

So, we stripped it, the drop completely flopped. A few months later, I guess like six months later, we revisited it with free NFTs, on sounds dot XYZ. So, she had a campaign going on. And she still had to build some type of collector base online. And the way I sort of guided her was like try just like DMing a bunch of people on Twitter, right and sending them your music and inviting them into a telegram group chat. And then through that you would incentivize and reward them by entering the group chat using a free NFT, right? I think she got about like 50 people in that group chat, in preparation for her pay drop down the line, right. So, as you sort of funneled people in, she used the free NFT as like a top-level funnel. She got people into the group chat and telegram. She sent different teasers and different like tidbits to sort of like prepare her collectors, maybe soon to be paid collectors as to what they should expect by listening to the music, different cuts, etc. And then the sound drop came and it’s sold out and did well. Now candidly, it was 25 NFTs I collected two. But the other two, right? Were from people who kind of like came across with that funnel, and had experienced her and her energy across her sort of like diligence phase, that I mentioned in tip number two. So, I love free NFTs as like a top level, non-threatening funnel to get people in the door and then provide additional layers of utility beyond that. Yeah.

Creators Serving as a Good Example in Web3 Today

Interesting. So, anyone who’s done, like traditional marketing, on social media, you know, everything really is broken down into these funnels. And I think there can be sometimes even a negative connotation around thinking about like funneling audience members in web two, because all about clicks and views. But this is something that’s more about giving, you know, letting people collect from you, get a taste of ownership in a really low risk way. Are there other creators outside of that one example that we might want to look towards, as doing things, not just with free NFTs, but someone who’s doing a good job with web three community building or just showing how the creator economy can be used you know, as someone who’s experimenting today?

Adam Levy: there’s a bunch of creators. Yeah. Okay. So, I already spoke about Daniel Allen. I’ll talk about Black Dave. I’m doing a session with him on the podcast, I think tomorrow, I think he was the first person to do a free drop on sound dot XYZ. And he just like consistently puts out like tweet threads and like mirror posts, on his thoughts on the space. And that sort of cultivates like mindedness across other people on the web, who just so happened to also be collectors as well, right? So, while it’s not maybe necessarily like a discord play, because there’s way more to community beyond just the token gated discord, right, it’s more of like a consistent content play and using NFTs as a way to capture value. So, you’re using web to tweets, blog posts, etc., to kind of like create virality and spread the word right and to kind of create messages and using web three to capture value accordingly, either through free NFTs that then have secondary value, and you kind of gain the royalties on that or through, yeah, even paid NFTs where you kind of get like both primary and secondary value. Yeah. So that’s Black Dave. Another one that I want to shout out is like, he’s not like a traditional creator, but he’s been really inspirational across my journey as a creator. So, friend, Cooper Turley, he doesn’t mince stuff himself. But he’s very much like a consultant or an advisor to many other projects and creators, who end up doing exceptionally well in the space. So, I guess you can say he’s very like in front of the scenes, but also plays a really big role behind the scenes.

Yeah, Cooper was my first podcast interview I’ve ever done. So, shout out to Cooper

Adam Levy: Yeah. Yeah, there’s also a Diana Chan, she’s doing the, I’m blanking out but she was like the first one. 


Adam Levy: Yeah, rehash. Yeah, rehash podcast, she was the first one to sort of introduce, I guess like a Dao type of concept around curation, right? And kind of like finding guests from like a community point of view. So, I thought that was really cool. I bought into the mirror campaign on that. There’s so many like, there’s so many people, we could dedicate an entire episode just to shouting out people.

Yeah. Honestly, that would be an interesting podcast episode doing like, just 10 creator spotlights. Also, gotta give a shout out to Diana Chen. On the podcast, she really started the unstoppable podcast and took it from zero to one and did like, 100 episodes. Yeah, I took over when Diana moved on to, do some other web three stuff. So big shout out to Diana.

Adam Levy: I didn’t know that. Okay, cool. Yeah.

I also gotta say, rewinding a little bit, you know, just to a couple minutes ago, you were, something that stood out to me was you said, you use web two, for getting messaging out, you know, some virality and web three for capturing value. And really great distinction between how to think through both because as a creator, we need both right now, right? It’s not just one or the other.

Adam Levy: Absolutely. So, the way I think about it is like web three has yet to perfect, like wall-to-wall messaging, right? Or like content platforms that sort of maybe like more crypto native at the foundation. So, I still use sub stack, right? I write blogs on mirror, that’s maybe like the more web three type of formal content creation platform that I use. I also post on farcaster and lens, etcetera. Yeah, web two has done a really good job at sort of, yeah, creating like virality and distribution algorithms, that allow creators to be creators in the first place, what they’ve sucked at, is sort of helping them monetize without sort of being like, I guess greedy with how much they take as well, right, their take rate. So that’s why I like to use that analogy, where you use web two to sort of build your audience, right? You use web two native platforms, because Discord is also like a web two native platform. Now, you could just like create bots and integrate more web three kind of composability within the chat application. But yeah, I still need sub stack and Buzz sprout in Spotify to get my audio sort of distributed and to build an audience. But I can use crypto, NFTs, Dao primitives as a way to capture that value, and create interesting experiences accordingly.

Adams Stack and How it All Works Together

Love it. Okay, so let’s take all that and now focus on you. And I want to dive more into, you know, if you would, if you had just shouted out, Adam, as you know, web three creators doing something good, like, let’s talk about why the things you’re doing are working, maybe even not working, if you have any insights on that. But your, I want to get to know your web three creator playbook that you’re using for Mint and you just touched on some of them. I mean, I heard sub stack, farcaster. I mean, you talked about discord. When I was thinking through this, what I see from you is, podcast leading into free NFTs, leading into newsletter, and also leading into limited edition NFTs, that aren’t free. So those are some of the things I’m seeing online, but yet, you share with me your stack and like how it all works together?

Adam Levy: Yeah. Okay. I’ve never publicly talked about my stack and a whole kind of like comprehensive discussion. So, I got to think about how I sort of funnel this. Okay, so one of the things that I try to focus on as a crypto native creator, okay, is I need to find a way to kind of like create a direct line of communication to my listeners, and find a way to also, right, that’s like the web two component and find a way to sort of capture value and share value from like a web three component, right? So, my content stack very much works on sub stack. So, I think I’m now almost at 30,000 subscribers on sub stack, okay, very much like Spotify, right? Apple podcasts and kind of using Buzz sprout to be my distributor, and hosting platform for all my audio content. I also use YouTube but I don’t focus too much time on that. I just try to focus on like audio and writing. So those are like the ways that kind of propagate messages. And I trust the sub stack algorithms and get Spotify and podcasting algorithms to sort of distribute my content accordingly. And then I try to find ways to funnel in into try to reward users through free NFTs, on my website. So, if you go to Adam, every single season of the podcast, I give a free NFT, okay. And I can sort of do this by kind of seeing how people are engaging with my content across sub stack, right, and how they’re sort of listening to my stuff across Spotify, how they’re engaging with my newsletter, whatever it may be. And I integrate this free NFT element because it’s a cool way to sort of like capture engagement and reward the user for being a participant in a specific season along the way, right? 

Why is that incentive? Why is it like important? Why do users care? Because they get to sort of collect this what I call an NFT pin, a listener pin, okay? And they get to kind of like benchmark their participation on chain as a mid-season five or mid-season six listener. And then me on the other end, I can sort of like build my arsenal of content and distribution to reward these people accordingly, right? So, one thing that I give to my Pin Holders is I give it a selection of additional content that’s gated strictly for Pin Holders. So, one thing that I did for season five, which was last season, I created an updated database of the top 400 Music NFT collectors with their Twitter, their wallet address, and their net worth, essentially on the platforms that they collect on. Because around that time, I was also doing music NFT related content, and had a lot of creators listening, and they wanted to learn how they can sort of spin up their first music NFT campaign. So, I gave them a database of those who sort of collect music NFTs, right? And by the way, this is all public information, right? It’s just like, somebody has to be crazy enough to take the time to do it. Okay. So, another thing that I do, is like more exclusive content. So, I create like specific articles and blog posts, let’s say on mirror, and I gate them using bonfire, based off that they can use their pin to access like something that I received, like the free NFT or the, what was it called? The Art of free NFTs, basically breaking down, like why free NFTs are like the Trojan horse. And what you could do is essentially as a creator to benefit as well. I tried to capture, like email addresses as a creator, right, and also wallet addresses as a creator, because that allows me to create better content and better experiences for my listeners. Yeah.

Deciding Whats Gated and What Is Not

So, I’m going to ask a question about the email addresses versus wallet in one second. But before that, coming back to the token gating, is there any metrics you’re using or decisions on what you should be gaining versus not gaining? Or is that just hey, this is a cool idea that I think, really is valuable, like the database. And so that’s what I’m going to gate versus other things are open and free to anyone, like how do you decide what’s gated and what’s not?

Adam Levy: I decide what’s good and what’s not based off what I think is gonna have the most amount of value. So, my audio, my video content, my newsletters that I publish three times a week, like that’s free to access, because I think that’s like, the standard, like, that’s what people should expect and that’s what I should deliver. Because if I under deliver, then I’m not sort of like producing at the realm of what a creator should be sort of producing. Now I could be completely psycho and be overthinking it, right? The reason why I sort of gate the database, or the additional articles, etc., is because, yeah, I want people to feel like there’s some value in getting the pins, right, so you get access to this database, you get access to these additional articles, that’s sort of like my mental model and lessons learned, across 20 episodes of recording. And bringing up the practitioner also kind of like applies his lessons, right that he learns across the podcast, you get to access that as long as you take the effort and time to claim an NFT and spend some gas to claim the NFT, right. And I feel like to that extent, because I spent so much more time creating that myself, in organizing that myself, that it should be rewarded accordingly to those who sort of take the additional steps themselves, to access that content. So, audio newsletter, etc., for free, additional sort of like content that takes me longer to curate is what’s gated, but still for free, right? It’s still free to access, it’s just gated.

Totally. When you put out these free NFTs, do you have the plan of the content that’s going to be gated already or is some of that just happening kind of naturally as you go?

Adam Levy: Typically, it’s like a week before I do it, or two weeks before I do it, because I’m able to really just like sit down for a minute and really reflect on all these conversations. Look through all the blog posts that I even published on my own website, to the conversations that I have in the past, see what got the most engagement on Twitter, right? And what got the most amount of downloads and sort of double down on those. Because if the metrics are telling me that those are the ones that did perform the best, like those should be the ones that I sort of, yeah, double down on. I think another interesting thing is like what I’ve been experimenting with, that extends beyond the newsletter, is now posting on Leinster, because I’ve realized that content creators do really well in Leinster in terms of how their content gets distributed. So, I remember posting I did this one like commemorative post basically celebrating a year in writing, 52 newsletters were published. Also publish it on Leinster, it got over like 1000 people collecting it, a bunch of likes, a bunch of comments. Now some of the comments were questionable, of course, but there was some like legit engagement that then translated into more newsletter subscribers. That’s something I’ve been posting on and posting more on as well. Yeah.

Collecting Wallet Addresses

Hey, that sounds like an example of tip number one of experimenting, you know, leading to growing your community now. Very, very cool and insightful there. And I want to just say, you know, you you said, you’re trying to be a practitioner of some of these lessons you’ve learned and that’s definitely something I’m, that’s in my next step too. So very, very timely comment. So, I did want to ask about wallet addresses. I’m jumping a little bit ahead to a community question that I sourced from Twitter, that was directly aligned to this. I want to ask it now just while you bring it up versus waiting to the end of the pod, but they want to know, do you think collecting crypto wallets will become more important than email addresses for solo creators? Why, how and then you know I added on top of that, what do you even do with the wallet addresses once you collect them?

Adam Levy: So right now, I mentioned earlier that like wallet swap messaging still sucks, like, people’s attention is still on web two platforms, there has yet to be like a chat application, that’s purely wallet to wallet base, there’s a bunch of projects that raised a shit ton of money around that, to sort of execute on that idea and create the ultimate platform, but it’s not there yet. A lot of the reasons is because it just takes a lot for the user to go to another platform, on top of the all the other like chat applications that we have, Facebook Messenger, Instagram, DMS, Twitter, DMS, Telegram, Discord, etc. Like, we’re over bombarded. Now we’re gonna have another chat application. I’m a big fan of it, but I think has yet to be executed. So, the reason why I collect email addresses, is so that I can have again, back to the web to analogy, like I have to build like distribution strategies as a way to communicate my messages, right? And web two has just perfected that. And the reason why I capture wallet addresses, is so that I can provide additional value to those who kind of proved who’s listening. Another reason why I capture wallet addresses, is because there’s also a lot of information in wallet addresses, that allows me as a creator to be a smarter creator. One of the things that web two creators have done really well like Mr. Beast, for example, he’s very public about this, I think he talked about this on the Joe Rogan podcast, where he like, over analyzes the performance of like a thumbnail. And if he doesn’t see specific metrics around how things are performing, he kind of scrapes ideas and videos, even if they’re already produced, right? So, he uses like YouTube’s data, YouTube’s analytics to kind of become a better creator and a better-informed creator so that he can create better content for his users. 

Similarly, in web three, that element is still incredibly important. But we don’t have that for creators, right? Right now, it’s just like primary value, secondary value, total value locked, all these like financialized base metrics, that’s sort of, what your creator may think kind of guides the community’s health, but there’s so much more that happens on chain, than just like primary sell secondary sell, price go up price go down kind of thing, right. So, I also try to use those addresses as a way to kind of like an aggregate analysis, as to who my listeners are, who are my collectors may provide better content, and better sponsors and better information for them, for example, okay. And this kind of ties into Bello, which we can talk about later but Bello essentially like an analytics tool. And I noticed through this analytics tool that I built, me and my me and my co-founder built is, a lot of my collectors also collect on Zora marketplace. And prior to knowing that, I never really knew that I should maybe be creating content with Zora, right, so I brought up to date, I think, like two executives on the podcast, and those episodes are outperforming any other episode or any other interview that I’ve had in the past, and I was able to kind of curate that content by looking at what’s happening on chain. There’s a bunch more examples that pertain to sponsorships and selling NFTs, etc. But that’s sort of like my mental model. Yeah, does that answer the question, I hope?

Selling Sponsorship NFTs

Yeah, no, totally, totally does. And you hit on a couple points that I wanted to bring up next. So good segue to and honestly, you just mentioned monetization and sponsors and I had some thoughts around that. Because I see that you, A, you do podcast sponsorships, and you do it through selling NFTs and so that was unique to me. And I’m curious, you know, do brands or companies like buying the NFTs to showcase their sponsorship, because I feel like a lot of times in traditional sponsoring, when I’m listening to a podcast, I’m gonna hear, you know, brought to you by, you know, X sponsor, that’s something the brand doesn’t really get to hold and to say, hey, we’re supporting this creator over here. And it’s very, they’re very separated, you know. So, I’m curious if you found any more positive buy in by selling sponsorship packages in the form of NFTs?

Adam Levy: Yeah. When somebody collects a sponsor, a lot of like, the excitement around that comes from the PR moment that happens with it, right? So being able to say somebody collected my NFT, or it’s sold out or did this, it’s great distribution. It’s a great PR event, online that gets attention, right? Since episode one. I was very lucky to have two particular parties that sort of bet on me early, when I had no viewership. It’s coin vies and po up, proof of attendance protocol. Daniel and Patricio, they’re incredible people, when I sort of announced that I’m going live with this podcast, they were the first people to sort of give me sponsors, give me sponsorship money, and collect my sponsorship NFTs because at the time, I guess there was a gap. Well, not a guess, I saw there was a gap to sort of like create crater related content in web three. So, the way I do it is that, I give out these like nontransferable NFTs, the soul bound NFTs for people who like keywords, and essentially, it’s my way to earmark participation in a specific season. So, I’m on season six now, I mean, six seasons have passed and every single season, somebody has sort of sponsored either somebody or I think it was Max five, I think season three had maximum five, five NFTs that were collected, or season four, I can’t remember. 

Why do I do an NFT not just like a wire transfer, right? Because I can do things with that NFT from like a token gated access point of view, that I can’t do with a wire transfer, right? I can’t wire like token gate, a wire transfer, right. But if I have some participation on chain, and you can prove that through the transaction and the NFT, that they hold in their wallet, as I develop mint, as I developed my creatorship, I can create cool experiences, not only for listeners, not only for speakers, which also get NFTs, but also sponsors, right? And we can do this whole, like on chain token-based Emilia, that I can’t really do through traditional payments. So, it acts as like a token for activation, essentially, for additional experiences. Yeah.

I got the coin vise episode flag to listen, the one you just did, to listen to on my weekly rotation. Okay, so you just mentioned something I didn’t realize, the speakers are getting NFT’s as well. So how you distributing those?

Adam Levy: So, sponsors get different NF T’s than speakers. Well, sponsors and listeners get the same type of like NFT, speakers get a different NFT, speakers get po ops, because it’s just super easy to distribute. And many times, they just like doc’s themselves online, so I can just kind of Airdrop to them without their permission, right? Or without them knowing without the hassle of having them claim it. And then yeah, sponsors get more of like NFTs that they can mint on my site. Same thing with listeners. And I just tried to do everything on chain, like try to do every element on chain. Now I’m introducing also like content on chain. So, I’m starting to tokenize my episodes and sort of create, like podcasts NFTs that we can talk about later.

Lessons Learned Creating Podcast NFTs

Yeah, I mean, that was my next question is, like I see you selling podcast episodes as NFTs and I’m curious what success and lessons learned you’ve gotten there and even you know, just the decision of how do you turn which episodes into NFTs or like the whole catalog versus single one. But yeah, let’s just start high level with lessons learned and success.

Adam Levy: Okay, so lessons learned for free NFTs. Okay.

Or free NFTs. I was really thinking podcasts NFTs.

Adam Levy: Oh, podcasts NFTs. Okay. So, do you want to talk about the sponsorship ones or do you want to talk about me tokenizing episode? Or both?

I mean, both. I think you did kind of break down the sponsorship of if there’s anything else that’s not, that you didn’t cover, then feel free?

Adam Levy: No, I think we covered it all for sponsorship. So, it’s okay. So, podcast NFTs, tokenizing on audio file. Okay. Well, the web three community is getting more familiar with collecting wav files through music NFTs, right. For the longest time, I’ve always been like trying to think about like, what are other ways podcasters can sort of monetize their content. Because podcasters don’t get treated the same way as music artists do on streaming platforms, like Josh, you and I, we don’t get paid per stream. Like we don’t see that, to some extent, maybe like a top 5% podcasters or top 1%, see that revenue. But there’s a huge, like long tail of creators that don’t see that. Whereas music artists, regardless if they’re like, top 1%, or top 99%, right, like, at some point, at over a certain amount of time, they’ll get their revenue per stream. If it’s set up correctly, their distribution channels, whatever may be, but we don’t see that. So NFTs can be poised as a new way to sort of capture that value by, yeah, I guess incentivizing the user to collect something, if they really enjoy the episode. Like that’s how I see it, it’s another form of patronage. So, there’s no real royalties for me to attach to this podcast NFT, because I don’t get anything from web two streaming platforms. What I could do in the future, which I’m not too sure on, like the legal landscape is like, sort of maybe do like an income sharing agreement with the sponsors who pay me right, which I don’t want to promise any of that, because it’s very, very weird and very unclear. 

So, I’m staying away from that. The whole takeaway is like, I tried to experiment more with like, tokenizing episodes, okay, and I don’t tokenize every single episode, I figure out the ones that I think are going to be performing best, or the ones who have performed best in the past. So, the first one that I did was a one of one, it was with Erik Ripple, head of data at Zora. And that goes back to me realizing through on chain data, seeing that we have an overlap in our collectors, and kind of seeing how that episode outperformed all the other episodes. So, I was like, whatever, I’m gonna make this my first podcast NFT, it was a one on one. I priced it at zero, it was an open bid structure for 24 hours. And I think like eight people bid and Jacob, who’s the co-founder of Zora, ended up claiming it for like point 22 Eth, okay, the second one that I did, I was like alright, let’s mess around with the conditions. So, the next one that I did was an episode of blockchain Brett, ended up being my most listened to episode for season three. And a lot of people, when I posted that they’re like, wow, this is such an iconic episode, like this is super cool. This episode made me buy my first music NFT, like those were what they were commenting and that ended up being in translating into transactions, right and collections. So, I kind of saw that wait, there’s value in podcasting, podcasting is just another art form. This is something that people would collect. And the price for that by the way, if we’re ready just going on this, I got from Bello, right? 

So, I was able to see, kind of like what my collectors were purchasing right now, at the different price points that they were purchasing at and use that as a way to kind of price my NFTs because I didn’t know what to price it at. So, like, alright, I’m just gonna go with that. And the last one was with Cooper’s episode, he did like a debut on the mint podcast, kind of like revealing his new $10 million fund. And we said that this is gonna be the next episode we tokenize and also did really well. There’s no real like, I guess like magic to how I do it. I just kind of see like, what’s the best content? What are people enjoying? And use that because assuming that if it’s performing well in web two, that it might perform well and web three? Yeah. Do you think that before monetizing, right, given the condition of the market right now, it’s a better idea to experiment with free before you go to monetizing work, or, I mean, is that really case by case dependent, and it’s hard to even put like a rule of thumb on it.

Yeah. Do you think that before monetizing, right, given the condition of the market right now, it’s a better idea to experiment with free before you go to monetizing work, or, I mean, is that really case by case dependent, and it’s hard to even put like a rule of thumb on it.

Adam levy: I think you can still monetize work, you just have to be like, super self-aware as to how you can monetize, I still see people trying to do like multiple editions, like drop multiple editions at a really high price point and you just can’t do that right now. Like point 05 is the new point one, right? Like point one was like the premier price for like, music NFTs in the bull market. Now, it’s like point 05 and we’re also seeing like point 02, right? So, you just have to be very, like cognizant and self-aware. The NFTs that I sold for the podcast, they were, there was like price at like point 02, point 03, and for 25 to 33 editions, like super low. But it’s enough to sort of build some type of like, patronage model on chain and like some type of like paid collector base, just to kind of like get things going, right? I still think people are collecting it. Honestly, my opinion doesn’t matter. Like, look what’s happening on chain, like people are still buying NFTs, maybe at lower volumes. But yeah, money’s still being spent, Eth is still being deployed.

What Should Your First NFT Be?

Yeah. So, if the monetization is really, you broke that down really well, then what about your first NFT? I mean, first, have been, something that got a lot of hype during the bull run, like, you know, X artists first edition, or this was the first NFT ever, you know that that was a narrative we had for a long time. So how should we be thinking about what your first NFT is? Or is that placing too much importance on it, and we should really just run to experiment as fast as we can.

Adam Levy: I think that’s up to the Creator, because everybody has a different emotional attachment to their art. Some people take days, months, even years to even push something out. And some people just like, I’m just gonna produce a song and release it the next day and minted as an NFT, right? It really, it’s really dependent on the creator. But one thing that I learned from the podcasts that I applied to myself is, I think it was in season four, I interviewed Verta, who was one of like, the music NFT, like, I guess, like icons in the space, really said that, yeah, really set the tone for a lot of other people and a lot of other artists entering. And when she came on the podcast, she basically talked about how, when I did my first drop, I wasn’t sure what to price it at. So, I’d let the market decide. Similarly, I did that with my first one of one, I didn’t know what to price it at but I did a 24-hour open market bid, right? I set the minimum, the minimum price was like point 0000001 Eth, so basically free. I was like I’ll just tweet about it and see what people think and let them decide and that’s what I did. I think if you’re like a nobody creator like me, like you can mess around but if you’re like Kim Kardashian, or you ar all these other, like bigger creators and celebrities that are entering the space, there’s a level of expectation that they have in their brand, that they need to sell out, in addition to make millions. And I think that’s why like a lot of them aren’t sort of experimenting publicly, at least in the space and maybe investors and other projects but not do their own drops.

Platforms to Help Creators Get Started with NFTs

Makes sense. Totally makes sense. Last question I have for you on kind of the monetization and the minting, before we do get into a little bit more Bello talk is, are there any platforms or minting mechanisms that you can throw out that would be really helpful. I mean, you’ve kind of mentioned some, as we’ve talked through this, but really specifically, what’s my minting stack as a creator who is not sure where to start?

Adam Levy: So back to the beginning of the conversation, we talked about experimentation, something that I’ve been experimenting more with like full transparency. They’re also a sponsor for season six of the podcast, but I think it’s been such like a win, win type of collaboration, that it’s allowed me to grow my creatorship as well, so I’ve been posting on lens protocol, specifically on Leinster and lens tube, I haven’t seen too much engagement on lens two but seeing like a lot of like engagement on Leinster, which is like a web three native Twitter and I, this goes back to me telling you like the content distribution, how things kind of get circulated is done really well, I don’t know what goes into it but I’m getting like great engagement and maybe questionable engagement too. But I it’s converting to like newsletter subscribers, so I’m continuously doubling down on that. So, but that that kind of comes into form when you are kind of like tweeting or like doing like blog posts for example, you can like publish long form copy on there, in terms of like minting because you can also mint that piece by the way to like, if I mint like when you publish on Lens, you mint to your piece right? So, people can collect it. So that’s on that. 

Okay, so we’ve got Leinster.

Adam Levy: Leinster Okay, next thing is Zora, has a really good like interface and really simple interface for minting any type of NFT, I think they’re also very, like culturally relevant and a lot of the early, early trends, like for example like music NFTs, right? Like that got kicked off on Zora, before you had catalog and sound and all these other curation-based platforms. So, Zora is really great. That’s where I met my podcasts NFTs. What else? I think mirror like, although we have yet to see like, like writing NFTs really take off I like it. Like did you really read something if you didn’t collect it? Like that’s what like covers in my mind now. So being able to collect and support a writer is super cool. So, if you want to write like mints, like or like publish like really interesting like well-designed blog posts, right? Go on mirror. Yeah, there’s like there’s too many like free NFTs are like I love po ops, po ops are great for free NFTs depending on how you use them. They will sort of like, I don’t want to say banned your account but like restrict you from minting NFTs, if they see you abusing the system. But if you do it in a very like thoughtful way, right? They’ll support it. 

And then using coin vise.

Adam Levy: I am using coin vise, like a lot of the creators that I work with when it comes to minting their social tokens for example, or like their membership NFTs, I send them to coin vise right? I haven’t done like a membership NFT myself, but it’s a great tool for that type of used case.

What is Bello?

Okay, great breakdown. No, thanks for that. Okay, so Bello, let’s dive into that and give it the rundown. So, you mentioned it, I mean, a couple of times, as you’re talking through your journey on the importance of blockchain analytics, and how for you as a creator that gives you insight into your community, who they wanted to hear from, how you could price point your collections and whatnot. So, what is Bello? Why is it helpful for web three creators?

Adam Levy: So, I’m super excited to talk about this. And I think a great way to sort of like understand Bello is, diving into what happens in web two as a creator. So, before I jump into web three, as a creator, let’s talk about web two. So, in web two, creators are the platform, right? If you remember when Tik Tok came out, okay, a lot of the Instagram artists tried to move and migrate onto that platform, but they didn’t see as much success and they lost a lot of their virality, right, a lot of their audience. And now Tik Tok creators are like the new hot thing and it shouldn’t be like that. And it’s also part of the reason like what lens protocol solves with that, essentially, on web two, as being the product of the platform, you sort of like you license and give your data out for free. And there’s only so much access, you can have that to that information. Whereas in web three, when you build audiences through tokens, right, and whether you bootstrap a community and liquidity through a token drop, right, or you give out free NFTs to create a top-level funnel of collectors, to later monetize, whatever may be the binding element is the token on chain, that can be used to sort of build really meaningful communities and with that comes a lot of meaningful data. Whereas the web, the creator, you get to own, you get to control, it’s yours, right? Ethereum will never shadow banned you, it will never do that. 

As a creator, you are the platform and everywhere you go, you take your, sort of build experiences around creators, that allow them to kind of bring their community to them. So, on that thought creators need to have access to the type of value that they create, and the value that they capture. And right now, there’s no real way to access information on chain on an aggregate level, the individuals that kind of collect your NFTs, there’s only so much you can find out through existing analytic tools, right? So as a creator myself, as someone who’s given a lot of NFTs, who’s doing paid NFTs, I kind of experienced this problem, because I had a theory, I was like, wait, if I knew more about who my collectors were on chain, and the type of activity that they have, I can then create better content for them, I can then find better sponsors and make money and make more money as a creator. I can maybe even find ways to price my NFTs by seeing what type of activity and so much more, so that sort of like we’re bello came in, and I hit up my friend Ellie, she’s a very, very talented developer, we got connected through another friend. And I was like, Ellie, we have this problem, I’m having this problem. Let’s try to solve this problem, because I’ve been talking about it on the podcast for months now. And nobody has seemed to solve it. We went to Eth Amsterdam, we built an MVP, and about 48 hours, we presented the MVP. We won; we were one of the people who won the hackathon. And we’ve been working on it since and the sole intention of bello to help creators learn more about who their collectors are, who their audiences, so that they in turn can become better creators, better content machines, better individuals and kind of pursue their creative spirit that web three allowing them to sort of like, kind of like be, yeah, liberated essentially. So, that’s Bello.

Three Ways That On-Chain Data Can Help Inform a Creator Strategy

That was a heck of a pitch for a product or a web three application. You nailed that one. I love it, very cool that you found this problem that you had and then went out to solve it. It’s like that’s the piece of creator advice that I see so much online is like you’re right for one person because there’s thousands of that person out there, who want to hear that problem and solution. And for you, it’s like you built for your problem and knowing that other people are facing the same thing. So then if there’s three ways that on chain data can help inform a creator strategy, are you able to provide three? I’ve got guesses, but I’d love to hear from you.

Adam Levy: So, when you’re trying to do activations with brands, because brand collaborations tend to be like a really big source of revenue for creators, you want to know as much as you can about your audience, so that you can provide these statistics and these metrics to these brands, to form the right partnerships and activations. So, you can use like Spotify data, you can use Google Analytics to kind of tell whether they’re male or female, what percentage, where they’re coming from, and kind of curate campaign accordingly. But on chain, now I can kind of tell like, what their net worth is, right? How experienced they are in the space, based off their activity. So, kind of seeing their net worth, right and their level of experience, based off their wallet age, is a great indicator that I can then take two brands and be like, yo, these are the demographics and statistics pegged with what’s happening in web two. So, I have what’s happening on chain and web three, and their characteristics on web two, it builds her more compelling narrative when going to brands. So that’s number one. Okay. Number two is sort of seeing like what other communities and audiences are they a part of. So, I noticed back to that example that a majority percent of my collectors also collects on Zora marketplace. And this was identified by the Zora that they collect, different NFTs that they’ve minted on the marketplace, etc. And based off that, I was able to make this action by inviting somebody on the podcast, and seeing a noticeable like increase in downloads accordingly. 

Another thing that I noticed is also like potential sponsorships, right, because that’s my form of revenue as a podcaster as a creator. So, I noticed that a lot of my creators are like multi chain on hold Matic. And they’re also Ave native, so engaged in the collaboration with lens protocol and the conversions on those campaigns have been like through the roof. They’ve been really, really well really successful. Another third example, okay, and number three, is pricing, okay? A lot of creators don’t know how to price their NFTs, right? They’re good at creating, that’s what they do as creators, but how do you approach pricing? So this was the problem that I had as a podcaster, which I wanted to figure out what should I price my podcast and FTEs at, so by being able to see in an aggregate way, in a non-intrusive, in a non-soldered sort of like revealing way, seeing what my collectors were purchasing, and let’s say the last 60 days, I can see all their primary and secondary purchases, categorized into specific buckets and be able to tell like, okay, I realized that out of my, whatever, 600 collectors for a specific season, right, they purchased about 1000 or so NFTs and last 60 days, and majority of them were purchased for less than point 05 Eth. So, if I want to find the right price, I should experiment with less than point 05 Eth. That should be my price range. So yeah.

Really great practical examples of how like on chain data can help inform creators and I just found myself thinking about the traditional music artist, and you know, on Spotify, it gives you information on the top 10 cities, that your audiences in and this is almost a way of looking at, instead of where people live. It’s like where do people spend their time on the internet? By looking at what NFTs they’ve collected and getting insight into the communities and discussions they’re participating in. So you’re able to figure out where they are physically in the, you know, in the metaverse to an extent, how valuable would it be as an artist, if one of the ways they make money is through merch and but you have no idea how much money artists of a similar size to you are making off merch, what types of merch they’re really selling, you know, where people are buying it from and now adding this NFTs, thing about NF T’s as a revenue stream, gives you just so much more insight into how to operate as a creator yourself. So that excites me, I think that we’re ways, away from seeing just a lot of people adopting this and fans really adopting like, you know, NFT revenue stream type of products, but I see that vision and I think we’ll get there because it’s just better for a creator than the options they have today.

Adam Levy: I think just on the on the music front, because it’s so interesting. And music artists are so hot in crypto right now, when you do this, like on chain analysis, you might even find out that a lot of your collectors overlap with another music artist, right? And you guys have never done music together. And if you just collaborate on a song, and if it makes sense, of course, genre wise, etc. You guys produce a song together, mint it, that could be additional revenue for you as a music artist, right? You don’t necessarily have to release it in web two, right? Like that can be a completely different audience that you release for, it could be like a web three exclusive type of song. There’re so many things that you can kind of find out as a creator, using this on chain data, in a non-intrusive like a non-kind of like, penetrating way for example.

What’s the Best Way to Get My First 1000 True Fans As a Web3 Writer?

Yeah, totally. All right, so appreciate the description of bello. I’d now like to transition into one more community question before hitting you with my one two, web three. I did ask a community question earlier, my second one is from me. So, this is a question from Josh as a creator to Adam. Now I’m thinking about starting a web three newsletter myself, and I’ve got a lot of ideas. And maybe some of it, we talked about off record. But what is the way for me, like I put a subscribe link in my Twitter bio, and I really haven’t promoted it too hard yet, it was just to kind of test an idea and I got 100 subscribers. And so, which is which is fantastic because considering I haven’t put out any writing yet, but my question for you is like, what’s the best way to get my first 1000 true fans, as a web three writer, if I’m starting from scratch, like I have a web three native audience on Twitter, but I’m trying to figure out how to take that next step. Is there one action that you think would be recommended to start getting to that, you know, 1000 true fans of real, you know, community members who are interested in the work that I’m putting out?

Adam Levy: it just falls down into two words. Okay. Free NFTs I think that’s what it comes down to. Because the free NFT collectors are not going to all be your 1000 true fans, like they won’t fall into that category. But you can continuously create like token gated initiatives around those free NFT collectors, that then maybe inspires paid collectors through that, right. And I think if you spent like six months doing that, four months, three months, whatever, however much time you put online, I think you could see some like really cool and fun results. I think also with that, the more you talk about like your purpose when building that true like that free, free NFT funnel, the more you’ll attract like-minded people who appreciate that purpose, that why and will want to just kind of like claim that free thing to show like they were there as a creator, as a collector in your creative journey for sure.

A Creator That Inspired Adam

Love it, love the answer. I think that is advice that is not just applicable to me, but also other people who are trying to figure out what that first step is. So, thanks for that. All right, one, two, web three, three rapid fire questions to end the pod. First one, and it’s gonna be, this is gonna be a hard one for you, particularly, because of all the people you talk to, but who’s an influential three creator entrepreneur collector, that has inspired or educated you? You got to pick one.

Adam Levy: Got to pick one. I would have to say, Queen George, she’s the one, because if it wasn’t for her, and all the flexibility, then like all the openness that she was kind of like, yeah, I guess like open to with my crazy ideas in the beginning, I would have never like had someone to sort of be like a test dummy with, right, and teach me about all these things and be the practitioner that I want it to be and sort of apply what I was sort of like preaching on the podcast, so I’d have to say Queen Georgia.

Great. Second question, favorite NFT

Adam Levy: My favorite NFT is my little noun. Like by far, I think also because it got me two new speakers on the podcast. So, it was a bidding war. Okay. It was between Andy from to Sarah, Eric from who’s like the CEO and founder of art blocks, and Eric Ripple, who is the head of data at Zora, just like those that entire like on chain, like auction or whatever, created a really cool, cool relationships, etc. Yeah, so my little note.

Craziest Thing We’ll Be Doing In the Metaverse 5 Years Down the Road

That’s awesome. I was on Twitter, the night that little nouns went live, and you know, saw it and then I watched like little noun 5,6, 7 get minted, and I bid on, I don’t remember was like number 10, or something like that, and got into a little bit of a bidding war, and I pushed my price. Because I really liked it. I didn’t, I didn’t win and I was I was second. I did not pick one up after that. Because I liked that one, I saw so much. So, I pop on little noun every now and then I’m like, let me see what’s minting right now. All right. All right. Last question in five years, what’s the craziest thing you think we’ll be doing in the metaverse? Or maybe I’ll extend this to the creator economy that people just aren’t thinking about yet.

Adam Levy: I think in five years, okay. Something that people are going to be doing in a web three shit. I don’t know. I have no idea.

2023, you know, like something that’s on the cusp on the horizon.

Adam Levy: We’re in 2022. Right, Josh. All right.

Kind of dependent on how you feel about life. Yeah, we’re in 2022, still.

Adam Levy: I think five years from now. Okay. We may be falling trap more to like dystopian world and we’re already seeing like instances of that. And I want to be an optimist when I say this, but I think the meme always wins to some extent. People kind of like preferring their online identity. Yeah, right versus their in-person identity will actually like we’ll see that like, consistently, we’re seeing very small instances of that right now, even people that have had in the podcast like they doc’s themselves in person, but they’ll never post a picture of themselves online, right? Of their true face and they’ll always sort of like overlap that with like their mask, right like their PFP or whatever, I think we’re gonna see a lot more of that. I also don’t think that’s like such like a type of answer that people may be expecting because it’s five years from now like, what, what can we really know? But what’s for sure is that crypto is going to be here to stay. More creators are going to be crypto native; they’re going to be using social tokens NFTs, Dao primitives, as a way to build monetize their audience, and I’m going to be here for it. So that’s a solid answer, despite me not knowing.


It’s a great answer and I actually really liked that you touched on identity, right before we ended the pod, just because it’s so close to what we’re doing, I’m unstoppable. Thinking about how, as a creator, you know, I talk about NFT domains a lot, as an identity builder, your identity on the internet and how we’re going to attach on chain data, off chain data to it. But like if you start with your NFT domain as identity, and then you think about all the actions you take on chain, whether you’re minting free NFT domains, minting work of yours, for, you know, actual Eth, or something like that on any of these protocols you mentioned, that’s building your identity, and you want your name associated with that, and not just your wallet address. So, great one to end the pod with. So, thanks so much. This has been a fantastic episode; I learned a ton. And I’m going to be listening back and thinking about how I can apply some of these principles to I want to do 100%. And I think I’m gonna have to even commemorate that by scooping up one of your podcasts NFTs. So, let us know where we can find, connect with you after listening to the pod.

Adam Levy: Yeah, so if you go to Adam, you can find my website and then there’s a bunch of fun navigation stuff at the top, from the podcast, to the blog, to the newsletter, etc. I’m Levychain everywhere, on Twitter, Instagram, I think the newsletters even like One thing I’d also say is like DM me, I want to hear about what you’re working on, like the latest crowdfund you’re trying to complete, any new creative ideas you’re working on, and how crypto is sort of like playing a role in that. So, my DMs are always open. I may be long to reply, but I’m there, I promise. But, yeah, thank you for having me, Josh. This was great. I had a really good time. You taught me a lot too and I hope to do this again soon.

Awesome. Well, thanks for listening to the Unstoppable Podcast, coming out with a new episode every single week. Please, like, subscribe, goes a long way to helping us build our crypto audience, with that, a catching the metaverse, see you on Twitter. Peace out.

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