Public Goods for Creators ft. Kevin Owocki of Gitcoin

Kevin Owocki, founder of Gitcoin, shares how crypto-native creators can tap into the power of public goods. Adam Levy Mint
Kevin Owocki, founder of Gitcoin, shares how crypto-native creators can tap into the power of public goods.

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Background

Mint Season 4 episode 17 welcomes Kevin Owocki, a technology entrepreneur based in Boulder, Colorado, and the Founder of Gitcoin.



In this episode, we discuss: 

  • 00:31 –  Intro
  • 05:19 – Gitcoin
  • 14:00 – What’s the Incentive to Build for Open Source?
  • 17:09 – What’s Your Plan to Capture More Market Value?
  • 21:24 – Intersection Between Creators and Gitcoin
  • 24:45 – Synergies Between Journalists and Software Developers
  • 32:20 – Outro

…and so much more. 

I hope you enjoy our conversation. 


Support Season 4’s NFT sponsors!

1. Coinvise – https://coinvise.co

2. Polygon Studios – https://polygonstudios.com

Interested in becoming an NFT sponsor? Get in touch here!


Mr. Kevin Owocki. Welcome to Mint. How are you doing my friend? Thank you for being on.

Hey. Hey. Hey, thanks for having me, Adam. Good to be here.

Intro

I love it, man. It’s good to have you here. You’re doing some really cool stuff in this space and I’m really glad for you to be a part of season four and share all the good things that’s happening at Gitcoin. So without further ado, let’s just dive right in. Okay. Let’s do it. Let’s start with a quick intro. Who are you? What does the world need to know about you? I’m particularly curious. How’d you get your start in crypto?

Sure. Yeah. Who are you is a loaded question, right? Cause we’re all doing digital identity and it’s multidimensional. Right. But what’s relevant to your audience is that I founded Gitcoin, which is a place that you can get coins if you’re a software engineer or a designer or increasingly many, many other types of things. And I got my start in crypto in really like 2014 started building little side projects and just messing around with what was possible on Bitcoin. And then later on Ethereum and Gitcoin was like my sixth side project that I worked on in 2017. I’d say that crypto has shifted from like people who were hobbyists into something you could actually make a career out of. And so Gitcoin was kind of my launchpad into the ecosystem as actually building an internet of jobs type application. So yeah, just have always been interested with the idea of networked money and programmable money and the internet of money and was just systematically exploring ideas until I landed on Gitcoin and that was the one.

So you talked about having six other hobbies that you were building towards. What were the other say if you remember?

Yeah. so basically I got my start in tech. I mean, I have a computer science degree from Delaware 2006 and went in corporate America for two years and I hated every second of it. I really wanted a way out the way out that I found being the CTO of an online dating website that went through Techstars, which is like an entrepreneur accelerator, like of a can of Y Combinator. And that was quite an adventure. We raised our series A, the week that Lehman brothers collapsed. TLDR is like been a web two entrepreneur for like 10 years and I’ve just like, kind of seen a lot of shit because of that. One of the things that I learned was that it’s fun-er to be in frontier tech than it is to be like climbing the corporate ladder at some like old state corporations. So I was the organizer of the Boulder startup weeks, Boulder startup, because it week celebration of entrepreneurship and technology every May in Boulder, Colorado, and kind of like one part hippie, one part technology, one part entrepreneurship, given that it’s Boulder, Colorado, which is all those things. I was running like the future of tech track for that because I wanted to really, I just wanted to like systematically discover AI and virtual reality and machine learning and block blockchain. During that time, I was just kind of exploring those frontier tech. And so what I built a VR meditation app, which is like the most Boulder, Colorado thing that I’ve ever done. A VR hunting app, which is basically like you ever been on a bar and you played like big game hunter. I’ve actually never been on a podcast in like, Fonzi the audience. We made a VR like version of big game hunter, which is pretty dope. I built an AI driven crypto app, which was called Pi Trader, I ran the Boulder blockchain meet up and I built a tool called ad block to Bitcoin, which basically just replaced ad block ad space where publishers are losing out on revenue with a QR code that solicited Bitcoin donations, which like that was a crazy, that was a crazy build. I built it at like 4:00 AM, cause I couldn’t sleep. And I put it on Hacker News and at like 9:00 AM a Wired.com reporter was like, emailing me. He was like, can I write about this? And by the end of the day like completely like from conception to like in wired magazine in like nine hours, I built a tool called you’ve got Eth which allowed you to send Eth to any email address without having to have a private key. I did a brief stint with a blockchain hedge fund. And if you just look on my GitHub, there’s like a, a trail tears of head projects. So, that’s kind of how I engineered my way into the spaces by trying shit and failing at it. The [inaudible] of Gitcoin, I started in May of 2017 and it like formally launched September of 2017. So a lot of nights and weekends hours to get, to where Gitcoin was.

Gitcoin

One thing I like about your story is that you’re literally at the intersection of community and technology, which is basically all that crypto is from running the blockchain meet up, right. And building communities around that to then fricking hustling your way and doing hobby projects on the side, just to try to extract value, build value, ideas that were in your head. And then that led to the birth of Gitcoin slowly, but surely. Can you walk me through more of like the origin story? So I know you mentioned a little bit back earlier, but walk me through, how did that come to life? How did you get into the public good space and decide to do Gitcoin? Like give me that entire story?

I can sort of give you that stuff, but like the first thing I wanna say is like the intersection of community and technology. I think the people who are gonna win in this space are the ones who got into those things because those are ends in themselves, like community is an end in itself. And if you’re doing it as a means to an end, you will not be as successful as someone who’s doing it as an end in themselves in itself. What’s cool is that those of us who have been doing community and technology, just for the love of it, have basically front run, all of the people who are just getting in opportunistically because there’s there’s money here now. So I just think that’s cool.

Which by the way, is like how I got my start too. I got started building communities on my college campus. I read the Bitcoin white paper, in 2017, 2018, and then spent all of winter break trying to understand it, and then started writing in university Facebook groups. If anybody wants to learn about peer to peer payments on a Saturday, like 3:00 PM, I’m doing whiteboard sessions. So I really echo that.

Totally. But to actually answer your question so Gitcoin’s a place that you can get coins if you’re a software developer. And basically there’s two things that we’re trying to solve that were both informed by my 10 years doing web two tech startups, the first was that I hired 45 software engineers. During that time, I was a CTO, VP engineering director of engineering. Engineers are, like if you’re an engineer, like you’re the hot girl going to the dance, like lots of people wanna take you to dance and it’s because everyone needs engineers to build digital experiences. And one of the things that I learned was that the recruiting industry is this insane arbitrage between like on one side of things, you have a $99 a month, LinkedIn subscription. And on the other side of things, you sell placements of engineers at companies for like 35 K. So like, just like figuring out how to recruit without having to rely on a recruiter, was like a big eye opening moment for me. And that was point number one, was like recruiters, are intermediaries, how can we disrupt them? Was like part number one of Gitcoin. And then the second thing was that everything I ever built and everything, most of us build is open source software, and open source, this just like beautiful expression of human speech, where we’re building our digital infrastructure and putting it out there for free. And there’s no way to monetize it. And over the last 20 years, as Linux has beaten Microsoft in the cloud wars and open source is everywhere, a technologist like me, when I’m starting a new project, doesn’t build his own database server, web server networking stack. I use Linux, I use Postgres, I use Engine X, I use Python. And those are all available for free. It’s this massive digital infrastructure that a study in 2014 said creates 400 billion dollars per year in economic value. And the people who are working on that infrastructure are working nights and weekends because they can’t get a job that does open source, that pays for that work. I think my kids are playing in the hallway. I’m gonna have to close my door real quick. So yeah, my kids were just playing in the hallway and I just had to go off screen for a second because I had to shut the door, actually like use that to make a point, which is like for an engineer, like me, who is like 35. Like I’m not 22 and just like [inaudible] around the world anymore. Like I have a mortgage, I have kids, I have like college to plan for. There’s a systematic incentive for someone like me to go work at like JP Morgan Chase, so I can pay my mortgage as opposed to work on open source where I don’t get any return for it. And so Gitcoin, just recognized that there’s a huge asymmetry between value created and value captured for Open Source software developers. And we wanna correct that asymmetry. So, to actually answer your question, which was, what were the threads you were pulling when you started Gitcoin? It was, meeting recruiters and funding public goods, like open source software.

Got it. Kevin, I feel like that takes such a specific mindset, such a specific character and personality type. How would you kind of describe yourself to someone who’s never met you and like, why are you so passionate about this specific, I wanna say niche because it’s actually really, really big and the economic value that’s generated through it is huge, but I’m curious, like you’re deciding to dedicate what feels like a lot of your life to building what you believe should be open source software and paying people accordingly to their contributions. Like, walk me more through that.

It’s a lot of directions I could take that question. I think that like the ultimate opportunity that we have in this space is there’s $2 trillion in an open source financial system and the money that used to go to IT on Wall Street, went to some back office on Wall Street now is being deployed on open source. So there’s just a huge opportunity to reinvent how open source is funded in the wake of that. But more generally, I think the interesting design space is that we now have programmable money and we can program our values into our money. And this is something that only like the Feds could do in the past. And now it’s like open source and everyday citizens can do it and they should do it in a way that’s moral and is compliant with the laws, of course. I just think that that design space is so huge, cuz so many things rely on money and I just, I don’t know. It’s just like really a blessing to be able to work on that full time. If I was alive a hundred years ago, I’d probably be doing manual labor. And instead I get to like tickle my brain every day as I’m trying to build Gitcoin and it’s hard, but it’s really satisfying and self-actualizing to try to make a dent in the universe and hopefully [inaudible] internet of money in a more regenerative direction. So I don’t even remember what question you asked

My question is like, again, it takes a specific type of person to dedicate a lot of their time, a lot of their energy to this ethos. Right. And you come again from the web two world now into web three, you’ve been hobbying, you’ve been building communities. You’ve been building software, you’ve gotten traction let alone with Gitcoin. But again, it takes a certain personality to actually like lead that front.

Well, I mean, like, I don’t know, like what am I gonna do? Like go get a corporate job, go work at Ball aerospace. I mean, it’s like. How old are you? You’re like a couple years outta school?

24.

I was young once. I went to a state school. I didn’t go to like Stanford or anything like that, I went to Delaware. One of the things that I saw with a lot of my like friends is that when they worked in corporate America, they got addicted to the salary and the lifestyle of that. R And then when they started to have kids and have a mortgage, they knew they were climbing the wrong hill, but they have an obligation to be the breadwinner. And so they stay in corporate America cuz they’re afraid of going down that hill and like being naked, actually I’m like mixing my metaphors now, but like it’s hard to get off the local maxima and climb the global maxima. And like, you feel very naked when you’re the senior architect three at like Northrop Grumman and you have to get into open source where no one gives a fuck about your credentials. And one of the things that I just did from the start was like, I was 23, starting a startup and jumping in the deep ends of startups. And I’ve always been climbing the startup hill, like pretty much since college. And I think that there’s a certain amount of like psychological safety that comes from just like always being on the market and always trying to hone my skills and always trying to create an impact. And you know, for people who are like, don’t get used to the corporate like salary and because then you’ll never be able to do anything else I think is like the way I got on this trajectory.

What’s the Incentive to Build for Open Source?

Yeah. Makes a lot of sense. I want to talk to you more about the incentive to build for open source. Can you walk me more through that? Of course the whole marketing narrative is like at Gitcoin you can get coins. Right. But what does that really mean? Because projects, they kind of like fundraise to get funding right from different contributors that love the concept of open source software that love the concept of contributing and supporting the Ethereum system. But what’s the incentive to build for open source?

Yeah. Well, I mean, I think that like the status quo is that there’s not much incentive other than like maybe you’ll land a job at Google who will allow you to contribute to open source 20% of your time. So there’s an asymmetry between value created and value captured and that’s fundamentally what we would wanna change at Gitcoin is close that asymmetry between value created and value captured. And what that does is like, if we can solve that problem, then what you do is that thousands of developers that worked at JP Morgan Chase or these private corporations can come work on the open internet and still pay their mortgage. Like that’s the world that we wanna build where Gitcoin’s maximally successful and we’re not there yet. Like tangibly, what you can do on Gitcoin is that the ways we figured out in order to monetize open source software developers is that we run virtual hackathons. So basically if you’re trying to contribute to crypto and you wanna get paid for it, you can work on something in a virtual hackathon with the Ethereum Foundation, with Gitcoin itself, with several other DAOs in the ecosystem. So that’s like kind of I would almost say it’s like a paid tour of the crypto ecosystem. So that’s virtual hackathons. We’ve also got this thing called Gitcoin grants, which is the number one Crowd funding platform in the Ethereum ecosystem. Basically what it does is like you can Crowd fund your contributions to pay for the work that you’re already doing, that supports Open Source software. So like hackathons are very good if you’re just entering the eco system and you wanna make a name for yourself. If you already have a name for yourself and you’re already creating value, you can use grants. In aggregate, those two products have delivered 51 million worth of funding to Open Source software developers over the last three and a half years. And we’re doing like 6 million per quarter. So it’s not peanuts. But it’s also not 500 billion per year, which is, the total market size if we’re maximally successful. Then the third thing is that we’ve got this thing called kernel, which is just basically like a web three university where we take 200 of the top new contributors to the ecosystem, the creme de la creme of the ecosystem. And we introduce them to ideas from Vitalic Buterin, and Glen Wild sometimes actually get them FaceTime with these people. And we usher them through, this is the philosophy and the ethos and the technology that you need to be successful in this space. And that’s what Colonel is. So I would consider Gitcoin to be like an internet of jobs application, but we’re unbundling what it means to have a job you are, a network age, you’re earning, you’re learning, you’re connecting and maybe hiring other people. And I just believe that’ll be peer to peer in the future as opposed to hierarchical as it was in a corporation in the past.

What’s Your Plan to Capture More Market Value?

Yeah, that makes sense. So 52 million, captured so far, and you said there’s 500 billion of value generated what’s the plan to actually capture more of that per year. How does one actually capture all that value that’s generated? I feel like it’s one of your biggest challenges.

Totally. So if you ever wanna see our stats go to Gitcoin.co/results. Launch launched that page in 2017, when everyone had a flowery vision of how they were gonna change the world and Gitcoin was actually doing it, I was like, these are our stats and it’s updated every three hours. So like if you wanna see our stats, check out Gitcoin.co/results. But the question is like, how do we scale from doing 52 million you can see it’s on an accelerating trajectory. Like 6 or 9 million per quarter is what we’re doing. Our KPIs, like number go up, but for public goods funding, not asset prices. I think that the way that you do that is that you just build tools that allow crypto networks and ecosystem to allow people who want to contribute to them to contribute and to get coins for doing it. And so we’re kind of moving from like being one of the biggest ecosystem builders in the Ethereum foundation to launching this thing called Gitcoin Aqueducts, which is basically like if you’re launching an NFT project or you’re launching a De-Fi product you can take the technology that the Ethereum ecosystem uses to self organize on Gitcoin, and you can just use it for your project. So Vitalic Buderin, it’s called Gitcoin a significant pillar of the Ethereum ecosystem that some are all of the projects are using to rely on for support. And it’s just taking that playbook and giving it to every De-Fi project and NFT project that is out there. And by the way, these all have like treasuries, like Uni swap has a 6 billion treasury now. So I think that’s how you scale it up is like you just provide the tools for people who are building open source ecosystems to get contributors into their ecosystem and retain them.

Yeah. That makes a lot of sense.

By the way, like quick plug, if you’re starting an NFT or De-FI project, please email me, Kevin@gitcoin.co and we’ll get you hooked up with a ecosystem building kit.

What does the ecosystem building kit entail?

We’ve got like a quarterly Bitcoin grants round, which is we’ll deploy 6 million per quarter. I think of it as a series of circles. Like the main pot is the main circle, but now we’re trying to do is like bolt on side rounds. So like polygon and Uni swap and Tally cash, all have side rounds on Gitcoin. And the ultimate, like the thing that’s powerful about that is thatwe’re not just matching contributions to Ethereum open source, but also to these ecosystems open source projects. If you email me and if you have a project that has funding and is like legitimate then we’ll just add a side round every Gitcoin grants round for you. The whole point of what we’re doing at Gitcoin is that people contribute to the public good instead of having to work on their own projects that have their own business models. And so the ultimate expression, is that it gives people the incentive to contribute to the public good of the Ethereum ecosystem or the Uni Swap ecosystem or of your ecosystem by setting up these funding rounds on Gitcoin. So what we wanna do is have like an ecosystem funding in the box kit, where you just basically give a certain amount of your protocol revenues or your token supply to the Gitcoin matching pool and we will recruit people and organize your ecosystem building activities. So that’s kind of how we’re scaling what we’re doing at Gitcoin, but also providing more utility to the ecosystem.

Intersection Between Creators and Gitcoin

Interesting. Okay. So beyond this toolkit that you’re talking about specifically that you’re using as a source to help up and coming NFT projects, how else do you see open source software development, empowering like creators in related creative communities? What does that look like? I feel like a lot of the focus is on developers and like De-Fi projects for the most part. I saw some educational projects on there as well. Can you walk me through more of the intersection betweenCreators X Gitcoin?

Yeah, totally. When I start talking about Bitcoin, I started talking about software developers cause I am a developer. I dunno if this is gonna be a video podcast, but like check out my ponytail proof of developer pretty long. One of the things is like we started off wanting to really fund open source software, but now we’ve moved on to all digital public goods. So a public good is it’s something that is non excludable and non-rival risk, which just means that like, when I download an open source software repository, no one can stop me from doing that. And it’s non rival, which means that Adam, if I download it, it doesn’t stop you from downloading it cause we can make infinite comments. And those are digital public goods. And one of the things that we’ve kind of learned is that Open Source software is one digital public good, but there’s also journalism, which is a public good. Like you reading an article and being informed about something does not stop me it’s non excludable, non rivalrus. There is also I think like basically education, is a public good for the ecosystem. I think that privacy is a public good. Privacy technology. We’re expanding from just software developers into designers and journalists and educators and anyone who’s contributing to the public good and not just software developers. And I just like, I need to get more inclusive in my language by, by talking about knowledge workers instead of developers.

So for example, all these content creators on YouTube, on Tik Tok, et cetera, those are technically a form of a public good. It’s creating educational content, doing something for free for the betterment of society. I mean, they get paid, there’s probably incentives, but am I thinking about this the right way?

Yeah, you are. And the huge thing here is that we’re moving people away from having to rely on ads in order to make their living by doing Crowd funding. And, we’ve used this mechanism called [INAUDIBLE] funding on Gitcoin, which I can get into, but like ads create the ultimate perverse incentive where I just wanna get as many eyeballs as possible. And so I will try to elicit an emotional response from you, whether it’s positive or negative in order to go viral and get more eyeballs on me so I can make more money. And what we wanna do is we wanna shift the incentives from that incentive landscape to an incentive landscape of who’s creating the most public good. That is the big opportunity I think, of the internet of money. The web 2.0 is very based on ad models. And if we can move to a model that supports the public good in web three, I think that’s gonna create this like decentralized fractal of just like beautiful civic engagement and internet skill democracy that I think will just like be really beautiful looking back. But if you’re a content creator in the web three ecosystem, sign up for Gitcoin grants and you can have a grant just like a software developer would is like the tangible result of all these conversations.

Synergies Between Journalists and Software Developers

Got it. Interesting. I recall in like other interviews when I was doing some research more about you and more about Gitcoin, you talked about, there was this happy marriage between journalists and developers in the Ethereum ecosystem, that kinda spurred a lot of the traction around public goods, which I found are super interesting, because like you said earlier, like journalists are creators in their own respect, right? They are a very like lean definition of what a public good is or contributing to open source knowledge, whatever you wanna call it. Can you walk me through more about that story and what are the synergies between journalists and developers and how that led to Gitcoin?

Totally. I kind of have to explain quadratic funding in order to answer that question and I don’t wanna go too deep. I’m gonna try to do it in like 45 seconds or less, but go, basically the magic of Gitcoin grants is this thing called quadratic funding, which was invented by Glen Wild [inaudible] Zoe Hitzeg. They’re the game theorists. I’m just like the hipster who makes it like Neon and like gives you a web interface to use it. The way quadratic funding works is that, Adam, if you raise a grant that gets a hundred dollars from a hundred contributors, and I raise a grant that gets a hundred dollars from one contributor, then, basically what we are doing is we’re running a matching campaign that matches all of the contributions to the Crowd funding campaign with a matching pool that is 3 million per quarter. In that example that I just said in a one-to-one matching, both of those grants would get a hundred dollars worth of matching, but in quadratic funding, what you do is you reward people who have more contributions from a wider set of personas. So in that example where you have a hundred dollars from a hundred contributors, and I have a hundred dollars from one contributor, we actually give like 98% of Matching pool to the one with a wider source of support. And so, that’s quadratic funding and that’s what powers Gitcoin grants. That’s the mechanism that allows us to build and fund digital public goods in a decentralized way that optimizes for the preferences of the poor and the many instead of the rich and the few. And I think that that’s the magical thing is, you’re getting supported based off of the number of your peers that think that you’re doing a good job for the public good. Not what some like power broker thinks. And I think that’s the magic of quadratic funding. Now I forgot the question that you asked me.

No, no, this is good. This is on the right. This is on the right path. I’m talking about the story behind the intersection of journalists and developers and how that kind of led to the rise of Gitcoin.

Yeah. So that mechanism works not only for open source software developers, but for journalism and privacy researchers and an educator, any public good it works for. That’s the magic of quadratic funding. And what we learned was that there’s this problem where like, software developers are not building and aggregating an audience. So when they’re running a quadratic funding matching campaign, and we’re optimizing for the preferences of the poor and the many, people just don’t know that they could be funding their digital infrastructure and the perfect marriage. So we’ve run 12 rounds of Gitcoin grants and deployed about $40 million on Gitcoin grants. One of the beautiful things that we saw around Round four was that like basically we were just funding open source software from rounds one through three, and then we added a Journalism round in round four. And what that did was not only did it like, cause some controversy because like some Journalists are just like Twitter accounts and it’s like is a Twitter account of public good is like a whole rabbit hole you could go down. But the tangible result was that the journalists have a big audience that they’ve aggregated and they would tweet about their grant on Gitcoin. And then those people would come to Gitcoin and they wouldn’t just fund the journalist, but they would fund the open source software that was right next to it on the platform. And that was the key unlock was that if you fund, like there’s a pluralism of different public goods, and if you support all of them all in one place, there’s a network effect where it gets better, the more public goods that you’re supporting in one place. One of the KPIs that we optimize for at Gitcoin is how do we get you to add more grants to your cart before you check out? So basically instead of just supporting this one grant, how do we get you to support this one grant and then shop around and add all these other different grants to your, to your cart. And that’s like a design goal that we have for Gitcoin. So that’s actually how the journalism rounds support the educators support the software, developers, the designers all in one place.

So again, I bring this story up because a journalist is basically a creator. Like I consider a lot of what I do as a very much like the foundation of journalism to an extent. So to hear that journalists got their start or I guess Gitcoin got a start supporting journalists that then led to software development and the list goes on and on and on is really interesting to hear. I guess my final question to you, Kevin, is what can society do to adopt more of a public goods mindset like yours and how to actually build with a public goods mindset?

UI think awareness is the first step that we just kind of have to break people out of this idea that there’s this like mean reversion bias, which is, anything that’s gonna be discovered has already been discovered. The classical game theoretical example of mean reversion is like a Turkey. Who’s like, everything is fine. Everything will continue to be fine. And then on, on like day 800 of their life, they get their head chopped off to be baked for Thanksgiving dinner. That’s like the ultimate like mean reversion thing. And like, the thing that you see with web two people is that everyone just think the ads are gonna continue to be the business model and like sometimes subscription services. And the thing that I’m trying to encourage people to do is like, holy shit, let’s climb off of that local maximum and find the global maximum. We now have programmable money. We can program our values into our money. And so let’s build better ways for our us to, for humanity to express its value. Than just like, do I wanna click on this? Is this a dopamine rush, click bait on me? So I think the first thing is like dislodge people from this mean reversion bias that it’s not even worth trying, doing anything other than playing your own rivalry game. And I, think that, like, once you’ve done that, then the question is, okay, what kind of like civilization do we, do we wanna live in what values do we wanna program into our money? And then you get into a place, and this is all very hard, right? Because you have to leave your safety of what works now, and you have to go explore. And like, I started seven projects before I started Gitcoin. And I had the persistence to be like a fish swimming upstream in order to build Gitcoin. And like, not everyone wants to do that, but you can hang out and vibe with the people who are doing that. I think like, so my answer to that question is, regenerative, crypto economics. So how do we build a crypto economic infrastructure that has net positive externality and each individual project is an impact DAO, which has positive externalities on the world. Since I’m on your podcast, I’m gonna really quickly show my book, which is called Green Pill – How crypto can regenerate the world. You can get it at greenpill. party. And what I wanna do is I wanna see a thousand experiments blossom. This is not Gitcoin’s story. This is all of our story. And I’m just aggregating it and talking about it in as many places as will have me is how do we build a regenerative crypto economic infrastructure from the world? But the first step is shaking people off of this mean reversion bias, that it’ll all just be web two and it’ll stay the way it is. Cuz the world is changing very quickly. And I think that we have to grab the bull by the horns and build a world that we wanna live in. And to me that’s regenerative crypto economics, but people should launch their own experiments with their own hypotheses and see where that takes them.

Outro

I love it, Kevin, that’s an awesome place to end off. I love your energy before I let you go. Where can we find you? Where can we find more about what you’re building? Give us the spiel.

Yeah, totally. Google Gitcoin. We finally reached a place where Google does not auto-correct Gitcoin to Bitcoin. So yes, we’ve done it. If you search for Kevin Owocki, you can find me, I’m mostly active on Twitter. I oscillate between thought leaders and meme-ing and shit posting on Twitter, which is kind of fun to just like vibe with people on Twitter. And I think you and I got connected on Twitter, and then if you’re coming to East Denver next week, we’re gonna be hosting a one-day mini-conference about regenerative crypto economic and all of these themes. It’s gonna be called shelling point. So yeah, come to shelling point.

On a Thursday, right?

Yeah. Thursday 17. I don’t know when this will air, but if it’s before that, come to Shelling point, if it’s not check out the shelling point videos and, Take from Audrey Tang, the digital minister of Taiwan is speaking. Glen wild is speaking. We got a stacked lineup. What I’m trying to do is create a shelling point for the hopeful people who wanna use crypto to rebuild our institutions in a more digital native way. And so it’s the aggregation of all of the community, not just Gitcoin, that’s doing this, but if you wanna get involved, send me a tweet at twitter.com/Owocki, and we’ll get you plugged in.

Amazing. Thank you so much, Kevin. Hope to have you again soon.

Peace and love. This was fun.

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